Is the CAF as diversified as canada is?

[Michael Dorosh]

The people are there, Jim, they just have to be educated. The Army has a zero tolerance policy against harassment and racism. You can‘t tell people how to think, but you can tell them how to act. And the army does, with SHARP and LDA training.

The civvie world is too liberal to allow for people being told how to act - it smacks of facsism, right? Not so in the Army.

At my old civvie job at the bank, we had a woman who complained about "all the bloody Nips" that kept getting hired - I‘m not saying that doesn‘t exist in Alberta, of course it does. She was well past military age, though - my father‘s generation had a very different view of the world. Not that they should have - my family is Ukrainian, and Ukrainians at one time were "newcomers" to the Canadian cultural milieu just like Vietnamese and East Indians are today. Ukrainian jokes were still common when I was growing up in the late 70s and early 80s. Maybe it‘s even gotten my resume chucked in the garbage by some civvie firms - but it hasn‘t affected my military career.

One of our "coloured" soldiers who recently released came to the Armouries last night to finalize his papers. He wasn‘t regarded as a good soldier - I didn‘t serve in his section so I can‘t say whether or not he was. But I have talked to others who have, and whatever bad things may have been said about him, whatever things he was called (from thief to moron, and the nicest thing I‘ve heard about him was "he tries hard"), he was never what he would have been called in the States - "dumb nigger." I‘ve yet to hear that word be used to or in reference to anyone, even in passing. It might go on, probably does go on, but I haven‘t seen it - not in the Army, anyway. If you don‘t believe that, that is your problem. I can‘t prove it to you, and honestly can‘t be bothered to try. Several people I would never have expected it from came to the OR for the sole purpose of shaking his hand and asking him how he was doing. They obviously didn‘t have to do that. But he was a Highlander, and so they did.

I think too many white people make too big a deal out of racial hiring policies, and see discrimination where there is none. White people whine and cry too, you know. The Calgary Police were under scrutiny for setting targets for non-whites (as well as females). And while there are more females on the Force now, I am reasonably sure they are still taking the best candidates for the job based on merit and ability - and that many visible minorities do not join the police for some of the same reasons they don‘t join the Army that have been mentioned here by others. And the majority of policemen are still WASP males.

If racism is so prevalent in your corner of the world, then I sympathize with you - and caution you not to let it make you bitter. If you‘ve gone into business for yourself, I submit that you have no reason to fear racist hiring practices, and if you are really that concerned about Canada being able to defend you in case of war, I doubt it will come to that any time soon.

We may not have a manpool exempt from the "multi-cultural advocates", (LDA training is specifically designed to remind us that we have a "diverse army") but I have yet to meet anyone who felt they had to take race into consideration when giving - or obeying - an order. That‘s not what the military is about.

And on our last parade, we all took off our headdress and prayed to the same God. The chaplain happened to be RC (or Protestant, maybe, I really wasn‘t bothered to find out). I don‘t think anyone minded, but of course, all the minorities had already sold their people out by wearing a kilt to begin with, right?

Oh wait - "their people" were the Canadians. Silly me.

 

[the patriot]

With respect to the comment in regards to pictures from WW2 and the European faces in the photos from JimisCanadian; Sikhs wore their turbans and kirpans at Vimy Ridge and helped capture it alongside the Canadians that fought there in World War One. Come to think of it, the whole Indian sub-continent (Hindus, Sikhs, and Muslims) fought against the Germans, Italians, and the Japanese in the past two world wars. I would strongly suggest that you (JimisCanadian) should get your story right and do your homework before you slag people that have died to give you "the freedom of speech" so that you can post your eurocentric garbage on this site. Yes, coloured people died so that you could open your fat mouth. Ironically enough, it‘s those countries that have "coloured people" (as Jimiscanadian would probably call them pakis and niggers) that are committing more troops (battalion and brigade sized units) to UN Peacekeeping tours. Now imagine if your white Canadian government would ever do that?!

-the patriot-

 

[the patriot]

"There is only one colour, and that colour is red.
That being the colour of the blood of the enemy
caked on my sword...."

-the patriot-

 

[RCA]

Canada won‘t disappear from a bang or a wimper but from ingnorance. Jim must have bent over and kissed his ass when he realized he was born white. But my advise to you is if you don‘t believe us come and join. I guaretee you you won‘t last because you will find we don‘t toerate your bullshit.

Ubique

 

[jimiscanadian]

Master Blaster: I really hope you were trying to be "over the top" when you wrote about "stuffing someones intestines back into their abdomen". The last time I took an advanced trauma course, the procedure is NOT to replace them, but to cover with sterile dressings, irrigate with saline, and bangade LIGHTLY to contain them. Then to transport the casualty immediately to advanced medical aid, where a surgeon, who has a hell of a lot more knowledge than you or I, will carefully examine and repair the gut, and then close and suture. But of course, you knew that didn‘t you?

Dorosh: Let‘s be clear here. I said that the CANADIANS in WW2 were mostly Anglo, with a scattering of others. How many Chinese does your reference book represent? A company in total? And I know that they were sent to be undercover agents in the Orient, which made sense, a white man would have been unable to accomplish the mission, too easy to spot. The only "coloured" member of the RCAF from ww2 that I have ever met, was the former LT Governor, Lincoln Alexander, who was a aircraftsman 2. I have never seen, or heard of, any Flying Officer, or Pilot Officer, or Sgt Pilot, of the RCAF from ww2, who was anything other than white. As for the graves in Italy and elsewhere, I was refering to men who had the ‘Canada" flash on their shoulder, not the Indians, or the Gurkhas. I was a parade marshall at the annual Warriors day parade at the CNE this year, and I saw that the number of veterans is steadily declining, as they advance in age. I also saw the number of marchers from other countries military is increasing. Vietnamese, and Korean contingents were large, and the comments from the Canadian vets were a mixture of disgust at the Vietnamese, because of their " American" dress and drill, and admiration for the Koreans who wore identical dark blue suits, white shirts, and red ties,and were very quiet, and polite. They also made point, at the end of the parade, to break off, and appalaude the Canadian Korea vets.

In total, you all seem to have missed my point, which is this.Are the Canadian Armed Forces a world apart from the rest of Canada? Or are they a reflection of the country as a whole? The answer seems to be that you think it is a reflection of the country, with good relations between the races in the CAF, and a feeling of comradeship in the units. OK, I‘m glad you feel that way......BUT, I still have a problem with the nagging thought that you are deluding yourselves re the race situation. The answer will come in the future, at a uncertain date, when the country calls, who will answer? I wonder?

Finally, for those of you might have been wondering. I served in the 48th in the period 1970 to 1973. I am a retired Ambulance Officer from Metro Toronto Ambulance with 22 years service, and I am currently a small business owner. My father was a ww1 CEF veteran, in the CMGC, was wounded 3 times, and yes, he was at Vimy Ridge. I‘ll march off now, to the sound of either applause, or hisses, as you decide wether I am a racist, or someone who simply has a different view of the contemporary society in Canada, and it‘s constituent factions, green or otherwise.X

 

[bossi]

Here‘s an example of "doing the right thing", against an order (further to my earlier point that our traditional training and ethos should be able to allow us to discern right from wrong, and that knee-jerk, politically correct solutions are not always necessary - instead, we should relearn the basics ... i.e. "look after the troops").

Dileas Gu Brath!

(From The Guardian):

Ashdown tells how father stood by Indian troops

Patrick Wintour, chief political correspondent
Wednesday November 8, 2000

Sir Paddy Ashdown revealed yesterday how his father was brought before a court martial for refusing to comply with an order to abandon Indian troops under his command during the Dunkirk retreat.
The order had been "idiotic and disgraceful", said Sir Paddy, who was a Royal Marine captain before he was leader of the Liberal Democrats. His father, who ended the war a colonel, was in the Royal Indian Army Service Corps, based in the Punjab. In 1939 he took a platoon of Indian soldiers and their troop of mules as one of four mule trains to join the British Expeditionary Force in France.

During the BEF‘s 100-mile retreat in June 1940, the order went out from a senior British officer to set loose the mules and the Indians; the British officers were ordered to make their way to Dunkirk for evacuation, since officers were in short supply.

Sir Paddy‘s father, John, disobeyed, turning loose the mules but marching his platoon to Dunkirk without loss. There he secured a berth for them all on the last ship out before the jetty was bombed. Back in England, he was reunited with his wife, Lois, but court martialled for disobeying an order. The court martial was subsequently thrown out, according to Sir Paddy.

The Ministry of Defence, when first approached about the story by the Southall-based TV company Zee TV, said its archive department had after two days been unable to find any record of Indian troops at Dunkirk; it also reported it had lost the records of Indian Army court martials. Zee TV located a record of the Indian troops‘ presence in hours at the Imperial War Museum. The ministry then asserted that the command to cut loose the Indians and mules, made by a single officer, did not amount to an official order.

Sir Paddy said last night: "It may seem that the order was a racist one in the context of our time, but my father thought simply that these were his men, he was responsible for them, and he must bring them back. That was the beginning and the end of it."
- 30 -

 

[Master Blaster]

No Jimi; I didn‘t have the advantages of the training, warm and fuzzy back up or the trauma center within a five minutes drive. It‘s extrememly difficult to place someone into a chopper in a hot LZ without first stuffing the intestines back into the body cavity, they get underfoot and tangle in the gear. This was 27 years ago so things have probably changed a little by now, EH Sunshine?

I do recall your original question and I think if you reread it you may get the impression that it was a little racist in it‘s format. I‘m not implying that you are a racist (anymore) only that you appear to have what is commonly referred to as a bigotted attitude. It‘s a tangled web because anytime you do not agree with someone that has more ‘friends‘ than you do, you MUST be a bigot therefore anything you utter is from ignorance and fear. I have been there and seen it for myself and applaud anyone that has the courage to fight the status quo.

I am a bigot

I am a racist

I am ignorant

Anyone that disagrees with me MUST be against bigots, racists and ignorant people.

Simplistic? Yes Realistic? Yes

True? I don‘t think so but it‘s all at the discretion of someone else‘s perception to decide.

Dileas Gu Brath

 

[the patriot]

Oh Jimi, here‘s another one for you. Coloured people (as you would call them pakis and niggers; India and countries of the African continent, just in case you failed high school geography) have fully functional Airborne Regiments in their Order of Battle. Not this tiddly wink bullshit that you‘re white "Canadian Government" would call a "parachute capability". Funny how rednecks feel the need to express themselves when they have pickles up their asses. As for your affiliation with the 48th Highlanders; you‘re an insult to the kilt and every Highlander that ever died for Canada.

-the patriot-

 

[tonykeene]

I think the big problem here is not that the CF is not diverse, because it certainly is.  The problem is that most of us only see what is immediately around us, and since reserve units in big cities tend to be diverse, then people in those units look around them and see a great mixture of folks.

However, the Regular Force as a whole recruits largely from a stable base of only about 300,000 Canadians (the CDS says so, anyway) who are largely drawn from three regional areas.  These are The Maritimes (with heavy emphasis on Cape Breton and Newfoundland), rural Quebec, and the Prairies.  This recruiting base is largely male, white and ultra-conservative.

Put a Montreal or Toronto militia unit on parade beside a regular infantry battalion, and you'll see...the difference is immediately obvious.

I'm sure our recruiters would love to get way more people from cities, and from the different communities etc in those cities.  It just doesn't seem to be happening to any large degree, despite the great amount of money and effort expended.

So the CF is diverse, in small areas, but nowhere near as diverse as the urban population of Canada.  And since 85 per cent of Canadians live in medium to large cities, we in fact have little real contact with the bulk of Canadians.  I'm sure that now more reservists are going on operations (and sadly, being killed in action) this will change, but it will be very slow.

Which is why they often don't even recognize the uniform.

 

[paracowboy]

Holy Necro-posting Batman! And your reason for resurrecting a thread not touched in 6 years is...?

 

[Danjanou]

I’d also be a little careful with your Geography there ole buddy. Most Newfoundlanders I know of don’t like to be referred to as from and/or part of the Maritimes. That term is reserved for those from the other three provinces that make up Atlantic Canada, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick  and PEI.

 

[tonykeene]

Oh dear, I'm sorry.  My editor used to beat on me all the time for that one.

Newfoundland and Labrador may be called an Atlantic province, but not part of the Maritimes.  Is that right?

In answer as to why I entered this thread after several years is because this very subject came up at a conference I attended earlier this year, and the CDS stood up at the front and told us why were we having trouble recruiting more folks.  We have such a narrow recruting base in Canada; it does not cover the entire country, not by a long shot.

 

[George Wallace]

Let's look at Canada for a second and examine it's demographics.  Most of our 'minorities' who have emigrated here and become immigrants or refugees to Canada have settled in the cities.  There are many distractions in the Cities and many opportunities.  If the demographics of the CF are that most of the members of the CF are from Rural or small municipalities, then the numbers can be easily explained.  The predominately 'White' population is in the Rural and small municipalities with fewer 'distractions' and opportunities.  The majority of the 'Coloured' population is in the major metropolitan areas, and have no expossure to, or interest in, the CF.  Where are the majority of CF Bases located?  Not in the major Metropolitan areas (In the majority of cases.).

 

[paracowboy]

In answer as to why I entered this thread after several years is because this very subject came up at a conference I attended earlier this year, and the CDS stood up at the front and told us why were we having trouble recruiting more folks. 

seen

 

[Danjanou]

Let's look at Canada for a second and examine it's demographics.  Most of our 'minorities' who have emigrated here and become immigrants or refugees to Canada have settled in the cities.  There are many distractions in the Cities and many opportunities.  If the demographics of the CF are that most of the members of the CF are from Rural or small municipalities, then the numbers can be easily explained.  The predominately 'White' population is in the Rural and small municipalities with fewer 'distractions' and opportunities.  The majority of the 'Coloured' population is in the major metropolitan areas, and have no expossure to, or interest in, the CF.  Where are the majority of CF Bases located?  Not in the major Metropolitan areas (In the majority of cases.).

GW I think you summed it up rather well, and I have more than a passing knowledge on Immigration patterns and demographics as you know. It would also support Major Keene's comparison between a sterotypical "urban" Militia Bn and a "'rural" Regular one. Although I would add the more rural Reserve units to that latter list as well.

BTW Tony, the only editor I ever saw beat on you was because you smashed up his ride, not because you got what part of Eastern Canada he was from wrong.

 

[tonykeene]

Oh Jaysus By, youse mean Bob Butt?  Dat was in Wainwirght...long time gone b'y.

 

[exsemjingo]

I had hoped that I left this nonsense behind in my Sociology courses...
What do you want, affirmative action?  2 otherwise equal applicants apply, but one is of a 'desirable' race, and one is of an 'undesirable' one.  Who gets chosen?
Better question:  Who sets the criteria?  I have not specified which one is "white".

Two things must be understood.  One is that Toronto has a significantly higher percentage of minorities than the rest of Canada.  Is there anything wrong with that?  Of course not, but, knowing this, no one should be surprised to see a difference between Toronto demographics and Canadian Forces demographics.
If I have to spell it out, if there was no difference, some ethnic group would be favored over others.

Here is a final comment for any boneheads who think the Canadian Forces are racist either by intention or by accident:  My profile does not say what color my skin is.

 

[George Wallace]

............My profile does not say what color my skin is.

Who friggin cares!  As has been mentioned numerous times already; the only thing that matters is that you are "Green".......you wear the same Green uniform as the rest of us.  (Sorry, no offence to our Air and Navy friends.)

 

[Roy Harding]

The CF is a meritocracy, period.

Nobody cares what your skin colour is, what your ethnic background may be, or what your religion is - as long as you can "DO IT", you are accepted.  If you "DO IT" in a superior manner, promotions follow.

I was in for 25 years - I've been a civvie for two and a half years.  In the 25 years I served I never ONCE heard race mentioned as a factor in assessing an individual's performance.  I currently work in a civilian cabinet shop - there's a Jamaican women there who is extremely interested, willing to learn, and only has to be told what she's doing wrong ONCE - you'll never see her make the same mistake twice.  There's a "WASP" woman there who is a classic "thudfuck" - thinks she knows better than journeymen tradesmen, argues when corrected, and makes the SAME mistake many times.  (Mistakes around an industrial table saw and other industrial machinery can make the machine bite you and others, BAD).

When it came to performance evaluations, the WASP got a bigger raise than the Jamaican Jewel (as I call her) - what's up with THAT??

I had the Jamaican Jewel transferred to my personal control, where she has continued to perform admirably, and I convinced the higher ups to give her the same wage as the WASP idiot.  She (my Jamaican Jewel) is the star of my little corner of the universe - the WASP continues to be an albatross around her section head's neck, and yet he prefers it this way.

Give me a meritocracy any day.

Edit:  For the record - I, too, am a "WASP".

 

[exsemjingo]

The CF is a meritocracy, period.

Nobody cares what your skin colour is, what your ethnic background may be, or what your religion is - as long as you can "DO IT", you are accepted.  If you "DO IT" in a superior manner, promotions follow.

That's what I said, and that's how it should be.  But if some of these social scientists get their way with our beloved military, it will be ruined utterly.  They do pay attention to such demographics.