Interesting phenomenon encountered while rucking

[geo]

kay,
from the above examples, the troops arrive at the hangar for 07:30 and have most of their work done by 10:30
followed by much rump development...
PT starting at 07:30 would see troops working thru till noon........ seems to work for me

 

[HItorMiss]

Geo,

That's what the troops see as their Schedule, however it's not always the case. Remember Pte so and so cannot lead PT. and the PLQ Cpl through to PL WO or PL Comdr do what they can to do T but it's not always in the cards. We can sit here and talk about amending the start of the training day all we want but the reality is that if we do that then the training schedule would be pushed back to eat up that time and again no PT. We do what we can and we do it well. No time in the day is untouchable no matter how important it is. I agree PT is NEEDED however I know when something is more important to get done then it seeing as the troops really can do that on their own time, vice oh say Vehicle maintenance that has to be done on work hours, unless of course you want to tell the troops and leadership and family (who we see not enough as it is) "Sorry everyone Training day will not start at 6am and go till 8pm because lord knows we HAVE to get our PT in". I think the system works as it is now. Troops and leadership do PT as a formed body as much as possible and when we can't we do it on our time.

 

[geo]

HoM,
I understand, just don't understand how we got to this point.
I understand the need for individual PT and that not every day needs to see PT as part of the schedule BUT, to omit PT from the schedule for .... +/- months (if some of the above posts can be believed).... I'm baffled.

 

[kayakguyt72]

Well there is clearly a problem here.  To say that Pte so and so isn't qualified to run PT bothers me.  We should be training our young soldiers to use their initiative, afterall they are our future leaders.  So let loose on the reigns and allow them to take small groups out on PT as opposed to sitting on their rumps.  I know that there are just as many Pte's out there who can run a better PT session than some Jr/Snr NCOs.  It just takes some common sense and a little ingenuity to make it happen.

 

[geo]

From my perspective, if you don't have junior people who are trained to conduct collective..... Train some!

 

[armyvern]

HoM,
I understand, just don't understand how we got to this point.
I understand the need for individual PT and that not every day needs to see PT as part of the schedule BUT, to omit PT from the schedule for .... +/- months (if some of the above posts can be believed).... I'm baffled.

Really? You don't know how we came to be here?

I'll tell you how I did.

"More with Less."

Schedule at a certain section that I used to work:

0730hrs to 1600 hrs. Open for business.
Coffee Breaks: 1 each in the morning and 1 each in the afternoon for 15 minutes IF there were no courses in the house. Coffee breaks were VERY rare indeed.
1/2 hour for lunch. That's right -- 1/2 hour!! (1/3 staff on lunch from 1130 - 1200, 1/3 fm 1200-1230, & the last 1/3 fm 1230-1300).
1600-1700 ... 1730 ... 1800... 1830 on MOST days was when we got to put in our demands to reorder stock to issue.
Some specific desks in that section: returned after supper consistantly to place contractor orders and actually file the paperwork that had been generated over the course of the day.
Most weekends: Most of those desks (if not ALL of them to bulk issue to a CAP course etc) got into work to look after the little things (like putting stock that had just been dumped in the back warehouse when the 25CFSD truck showed up during working hours into it's actaul spots so we'd have it there handy should someone require it).

So, in that section it is ROUTINE for these pers to WORK 13/14 hour days (and weekends too) consistantly without any PT in their schedule. They are NOT standing at the counter doing nothing -- I can assure you that they are WORKING. So, a lot do PT on their own time. But, hey -- they've got to sleep too!! And, be allowed to spend time with their families at some point in the day.

Short point? If they did PT from 0730 - 0900 daily, they would be at work until 2000hrs daily, completing everything that needed to be done or there'd be NO clothing on the shelves for them TO issue to any of those courses. Why? Budget cuts, staff cuts, early & mid-90s recruiting freeze and the tendancy now to focus recruiting at non-support types. But heck the higher HQ said:

"Do more with less!!" And we lived up to that faithfully. We met the Comds intent. Careful what you wish for. I either cut PT ... or tell buddy his family is out of the picture on his daily schedule and most weekends too, so we can meet the Comds intent. Hmmmm, what a choice that is for some of us -- please do NOT profess that most of us report for work daily but only deserve pay for "2 hours or so of actual work" ... that may be so in your case, but it hasn't been that way here for years now. I expect something to "break" shortly.

 

[kayakguyt72]

Evil,

I don't know that HoM was necessarily speaking of some of the support trades.  Lord knows that if we downed tools in many of the support shops, the machine WOULD come to a grinding halt.  (It only took me 15 years to come to that realization!!)  It seems to me that he may be speaking from a line unit perspective....as I type, I can guarantee you that there are soldiers sitting in many Coy/Sqn lines doing nothing when they could be out on PT or doing some small unit collective training.  This is definitely a chain of command issue, but isn't necessarily seen by all of my peers, and in fact may be outright ignored in some cases.  Hell yes the troops are busy, but in a combat arms unit, physical fitness WILL one day save your life.

 

[HItorMiss]

Kayak and Geo

Sadly it's not as simple as letting loose the reigns or just training Pte Bloggins to run PT. Running PT is a PLQ Mod (in fact it's Mod 1) You have to merit the right to get on that course. Should some Pte be allowed to run Pte sans supervision from some one qualified to run it and some other soldier gets hurt. The liability issues are immense. I don't like the system and how it works heck I don't even want to be defending the system all that much. I just happen to know the reality of it in a line unit.

 

[kayakguyt72]

HoM, I disagree, having served the majority of my career in a line unit, the PT Mod on the PLQ is a wall for us to stand behind.  I understand what you are saying, however, to say that a one week mod now qualifies and individual to run PT has always miffed me.  There are Ptes sitting in our units who posses more knowledge on physical fitness than some of the PSP staff working on our bases and in our gyms.  I'm sure it wouldn't take much imagination or administration for that matter to have the Pte's attend a couple of short lectures on how to run a proper PT session with a decent warm up and cool down. 

 

[HItorMiss]

Rog that Kayak, so seeing as you are in position where you can effect change why don't you walk to your Unit DCO and start the conversation?

No I am not being sarcastic I fully support the idea 100% but you see Pte Bloggins down there in the Coy lines can say what he wants but nothing he says will make it change. I the PLQ Cpl can suggest it and nothing will move. You though have the ear so to speak of the Highers that really can make it happen. All you need to do is go to Op's and Trng and find some time to get those guys in for those lectures. I am positive troops would look at it as a good idea.


As for the PLQ Mod being a wall I totally agree!

 

[X-mo-1979]

HoM, I disagree, having served the majority of my career in a line unit, the PT Mod on the PLQ is a wall for us to stand behind.  I understand what you are saying, however, to say that a one week mod now qualifies and individual to run PT has always miffed me.  There are Ptes sitting in our units who posses more knowledge on physical fitness than some of the PSP staff working on our bases and in our gyms.  I'm sure it wouldn't take much imagination or administration for that matter to have the Pte's attend a couple of short lectures on how to run a proper PT session with a decent warm up and cool down. 

Very true.Infact as a pte I was running morning PT.They sent me to the base gym to do a pt instructors course that took one afternoon during the sports afternoon.It also gives the Pte some responsibility and a good way fro him to get noticed.

The basic fact is we don't need to put in more hours at work we just need to work around our current timings.And if that means no coffee break well too bad.Why the heck should coffee break be sacred when PT is cut first.

 

[PMedMoe]

Why the heck should coffee break be sacred

  Blasphemy!!   
I agree with you.  I can remember sitting around quite a bit when I first got to Fd Amb, however, we always did PT.

 

[geo]

Vern,
Note that I wasn't razzing the Log branch.... some of my best friends are Log
I understand that the drawdown of personnel, the mission prepare/deploy/return leave/career courses/ etc cycle makes it impossible to fit everyone into a simple table - am not suggesting we should OR could.
Some of the other boys have clearly indicated that sometimes, the daily routine in some combat arms units makes it possible to "insert PT here".  If it is possible, then we should do it.  Not having the leaders to do it - so we make all the soldiers sit around and clean the pics and shovels, over and over again isn't a solution - it perpetuates the cycle...
Q1) What can we do?
Q2) How do we go about getting it done?

 

[Yeoman]

I know that we're not having problems getting PT in with my platoon in the 3rd herd. well the section I'm in specifically.
you sit around? no excuse for you to go out back of the lines, or in the drill hall and just torture yourself. it's not that hard to muckle onto someone and go 'hey this section/platoon is going over here to torture selves, come get if needed' then grunt or something, because odds are if nothing is going on in the battalion lines, you'll see my section in the drill hall, torturing ourselves.