Implications for Canadians in Afghanistan if Iraqi Insurgents Win

[gordjenkins]

First off we we are not dealing with Irish!

Secondly we HAD to deal with North Vietnamese to finish and get out of Vietnam

We also had to deal with North Koreans to get out of Korea conflict.So what is different in Afghanistan.  Otherwise we will be in Poppy Land for what..20 .30 years?? more??

There should always be "time to talk'"

 

[1feral1]

First off we we are not dealing with Irish!

Secondly we HAD to deal with North Vietnamese to finish and get out of Vietnam

We also had to deal with North Koreans to get out of Korea conflict.So what is different in Afghanistan.  Otherwise we will be in Poppy Land for what..20 .30 years?? more??

There should always be "time to talk'"

I disagree.

North Viet Nam and North Korea are countries, where they have a recognised military force, not a bunch of world wide 'free range' terrorists who thrive in a cult mentality of an extreme belief of a religion, wanting the death of the West, which includes you.

Dealing or negociating with an enemy government is one thing, but dealing with cowardly murderers, who have no real country, borders, or government for that matter, live in a cut-throat tribal mentality, really have little or no knowledge outside their local area, and who live in the hills like some retchid rabid beast, well this is an entirely different issue.

Phuck them, they must be met with controlled violence to sort them out. HE and napalm. They are a cancer, and must be destroyed. They are unretrievable.

If you have the mentality to want to negociate with OBL and his ilk, you are part of the problem, not the solution. Time to talk in this crisis only buys the enemy time, he rests, trains, and plans Ops against us while you want to talk with terrorists. EDIT: Add - he kills our soldiers as you want to talk of tea and biscuts. Not a chance Gord. Sorry, not a chance.

No way.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[Flip]

Sadly, I have to agree.

If you have the mentality to want to negociate with OBL and his ilk, you are part of the problem, not the solution.

There is no central authority that can be relied on to honor any terms.
Many in this camp understand only their blood oath to destroy society and
make civilization as WE in the west understand it disappear.

What could we possibly gain in any negotiation?
We could sell them the bullet for the gun pointed at our collective heads?
Perhaps we already have....

With some people you talk - with some you don't.

 

[tdr_aust]

Interesting thread..

I can across the following in our local paper.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23075709-12377,00.html

Afghanistan war is just beginning: report

From correspondents in Kabul | January 19, 2008

THE Taliban has seriously rejoined the fight in Afghanistan, an NGO security group said in a report that concluded the country was at the beginning of a war, not the end of one.

The Afghanistan NGO Safety Office (ANSO) said the Taliban's "easy departure" in 2001, when a US-led invasion drove them from power, was more of a strategic retreat than an actual military defeat.

"A few years from now, 2007 will likely be looked back upon as the year in which the Taliban seriously rejoined the fight and the hopes of a rapid end to conflict were finally set aside by all but the most optimistic," ANSO said.

About 1980 civilians were killed in 2007 - half by insurgents and the rest almost equally by soldiers or criminal groups, the group said.

Abductions and killings were likely to escalate this year, with growing links between insurgents and criminal gangs increasing the threat, ANSO said.

It said the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF), which is helping the government fight insurgents, is "in fact just now entering a period of broad and deep conflict, the outcomes of which are far from certain."

ISAF may number about 41,000 soldiers but "realistically" could not have more than 7000 for combat, with the rest mostly support staff or prevented from fighting because of national restrictions, the group said.

The size of the Taliban force was unknown, but estimates ranged from 2000 to 20,000.

"There would not appear to be any capacity within ISAF to stop or turn back anticipated AOG (armed opposition groups) expansion," the report said.

"In simple terms, the consensus amongst informed individuals at the end of 2007 seems to be that Afghanistan is at the beginning of a war, not the end of one."

As I see it, if the Taliban do manage to get back in some arranged way into Afghanistan, and even if it is only in a few of the southern provinces it will be the start of a big down fall of the central government. As it is the Taliban and Al Qaeda have managed some form of agreement in the Pakistan border regions of Pakistan and Afghanistan. This alliance will complicate any attempt for negotiations and would probably fail in the short term.
Now again if the Taliban do get a formal foothold in the south then it will strengthen their standing. This will help them with Al Qaeda and other equivalents with destabilising Pakistan further. I assume it will not stabilise well unless there is another military coup in that country and a huge clamp down on freedoms.
Add to this there is a level of Islamic problems in the Western provinces of China. This area borders on to Afghanistan. Little is ever heard of this small dissent but it is sufficient to concern the Chinese government. This area in China has a wealth of oil.
So if you end up with a formal Taliban in the south there are chances it will set off unrest in the China Afghanistan border areas. In comes China to the equation.

With the Iraq issue a failing there may end up with a country split into 3. The southern areas may be swallowed via either military or political/religious events to Iran, (not a nice thought), the north will be partly swallowed by an annexing by Turkey using a “regional stability” and the Kurd issue as an excuse. I suspect they will call it a protectorate. This will prevent Iran doing the same thing in the north with its Kurd problems. The Kurds are in an area covering part of Turkey, Iran and Iraq. So it’s a “probable” for eventual instability.

Anyway my rambling thoughts from down under...

 

[Kirkhill]

I believe that the difference between Afghanistan and Vietnam or Korea is one of jurisdiction.

In Vietnam and Korea the international community recognized the North and South as separate governments of separate states. Consequently intervention was amongst 3 equal partners: the North, the South and the "Brokers".  The Brokers being a third autonomous state (or a group of such states).  The Brokers recognized both the governments and the need for separate borders.

In Afghanistan the Brokers (the UN, NATO, Canada et al) DON'T recognize the Anti-Government Forces as having a Government or Borders of their own.  Internationally they are seen as either subject to Kabul law or subject to Islamabad law. Consequently the Brokers are assisting the recognized governments in their efforts to impose their separate laws.

Unfortunately the AGFs don't really see themselves as subject to any law but their own and don't recognize any borders at all.

One possible solution is to recognize a separate state (or states) in the hills.  After all if Monaco with a population of 32,000 can be recognized as a state then why not the states of Quetta, Helmand and Qandahar?

Let's see:    33,000 goes into 1,000,000,000 30,000 times.  Therefore the UN could conceivably add an additional 30,000 Indian states, 30,000 Chinese states as well as some 4000 Pakistani states as well as an equivalent number of Russian states.  (And 1000 Canadian states).

 

[edgar]

First off we we are not dealing with Irish!

Huh? Here's a coupla clues for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analogy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_solving#Some_problem-solving_techniques

Other than that strange brainfart, I think you did get my point. The North Koreans are way worse than the Taliban, if you measure things in terms of tiny graves, as I do. Yet we had to talk to them.

Saying all the Taliban supporters are murderous lunatics is like saying that all the Northern Irish are like the Shankill Butchers. Some Taliban supporters are merely farmers who don't trust the central government, for example. Tell me you can't find common ground with a guy like that, I'll say good thing you don't live in Saskatchewan.

There is a group of hillbillies or whatever in Afghanistan being led by a bunch of murderous lunatics called the Taliban. It's good if we can kill all the murderous lunatics but then who fills the leadership vacuum? Let's find those replacement leaders right away and undermine the lunatics. It can only make it easier to bring the terrorists to justice.

 

[Kirkhill]

edgar - it isn't up to us to talk to upset Afghan hillbillies (by the way my farming in-laws in Saskatchewan may have a thing or two to say about being compared to the Taliban).  That job is the job of the Afghan government, whom we are supporting as President Karzai requests.  He is setting the ground rules for who gets talked to, under what conditions and with what concessions.  That isn't our job.  It isn't the United Nations job.  It is his job.  And he has been doing that for the past 5 years.

 

[edgar]

And he has been doing that for the past 5 years.

So why are we having this argument? Clearly, Karzai agrees with me.
Pay attention when you read. The post said Taliban supporters. The distinction is important because it is between terrorists (Taliban) and the sea of peasants they swim in (Taliban supporters). Ask your in-laws how they love and trust Ottawa.

 

[1feral1]

Huh? Here's a coupla clues for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analogy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_solving#Some_problem-solving_techniques

Other than that strange brainfart, I think you did get my point. The North Koreans are way worse than the Taliban, if you measure things in terms of tiny graves, as I do. Yet we had to talk to them.

Saying all the Taliban supporters are murderous lunatics is like saying that all the Northern Irish are like the Shankill Butchers. Some Taliban supporters are merely farmers who don't trust the central government, for example. Tell me you can't find common ground with a guy like that, I'll say good thing you don't live in Saskatchewan.

There is a group of hillbillies or whatever in Afghanistan being led by a bunch of murderous lunatics called the Taliban. It's good if we can kill all the murderous lunatics but then who fills the leadership vacuum? Let's find those replacement leaders right away and undermine the lunatics.

Taliban and there supporters hold hands. Some supporters might not be firing the weapons, but they are in their cause.

Don't give us your crap!

Yes I am from Saskatchewan, and farmers there (like my family) have nothing in common with a group of people who support a terrorist fighting forces, and their methodology and overall thought.

Ever been to Saskatchewan, shy of flying over it or driving through it? I lived ther for the first 35 yrs of my life!

 

[edgar]

Taliban and there supporters hold hands. Some supporters might not be firing the weapons, but they are in their cause.

Don't give us your crap!

Yes I am from Saskatchewan, and farmers there (like my family) have nothing in common with a group of people who support a terrorist fighting forces, and their methodology and overall thought.

Ever been to Saskatchewan, shy of flying over it or driving through it? I lived ther for the first 35 yrs of my life!

Here is some more crap for you. (Pokes Wesley's chest)
Good place to be from, right? I remain in Saskatchewan. My Dad lost his farm in 1990. That's why I joined the army. There are farmers in Afghanistan who don't know where their loyalty lies, with Kabul, or with the people who come around (with rifles) and claim to be working in there interest. There are people in Northern Ireland who always have disliked British rule, yet weren't members of the PIRA. There are farmers in Saskatchewan who would be happy to transfer their loyalty west. http://www.westcan.org/ is the organized example. I let my membership expire when I got tired of hearing the Jewish conspiracy theories.
Are the farmers in Sask better human beings than ones in Afghanistan? I've heard threats of shooting over six round bales along an unfenced property line. Civilization is a thin fucking veneer friend. What keeps the farmers in line here is trust in Democracy (with a lot of bitching to be sure), and trust that the RCMP will clamp down hard on personal gunfights. That's why the lunatics get no traction here. That's what is lacking in the hills of Afghanistan and that's why we are over there.

 

[1feral1]

Here is some more crap for you. (Pokes Wesley's chest)
Good place to be from, right? I remain in Saskatchewan. My Dad lost his farm in 1990. That's why I joined the army. There are farmers in Afghanistan who don't know where their loyalty lies, with Kabul, or with the people who come around (with rifles) and claim to be working in there interest. There are people in Northern Ireland who always have disliked British rule, yet weren't members of the PIRA. There are farmers in Saskatchewan who would be happy to transfer their loyalty west. http://www.westcan.org/ is the organized example. I let my membership expire when I got tired of hearing the Jewish conspiracy theories.
Are the farmers in Sask better human beings than ones in Afghanistan? I've heard threats of shooting over six round bales along an unfenced property line. Civilization is a thin fucking veneer friend. What keeps the farmers in line here is trust in Democracy (with a lot of bitching to be sure), and trust that the RCMP will clamp down hard on personal gunfights. That's why the lunatics get no traction here. That's what is lacking in the hills of Afghanistan and that's why we are over there.

Poke away my friend, but I disagree.

My family left Ontario for Saskatchewan in 1910. Settled in the Quill Lakes area, and almost 100 yrs later, they still farm. Sure there has been hard times, but they still carry on, buying new equipment every so often, and help neighbours out when asked. 'Them's the laaaaw of the hills', where I come from.

Gun fights over bales? Sounds like a personal problem to me, and not rife throughout the community. To say that the only thing holding Sakatchewan farmers back from outright mayhem and rebellion is democracy and the RCMP is crap. There is nutcases in every crowd sure, but not finatical extremism in large numbers.

Yes, I remember the Western Canada Concept Party, and some at that time had a gutful of eastern politics dictating western lifestyle. The current federal government is a vast improvemnt over the poisioning of the nation which the Liberals did for decades.

I think comparing the civilised law abiding general population of a Canadian province to a bunch of illiterate tribal murdering savages living in the dark ages, and hell bent on some extreme fight is a disgrace.

Sorry Edgar, but I totally disagree where you are coming from.

 

[Kirkhill]

Brilliantly said Wes.

Cheers

 

[Jed]

Hey this is cool! A couple of ex Saskatchewan farm boys having a little discussion, lol.

Has anyone started a thread wrt the new U.S. counter-insurgency approach learned in Iraq and how it should be applied in Afghanistan ?

Jed, (An ex-Saskatchewan Farmboy)

 

[edgar]

I think comparing the civilised law abiding general population of a Canadian province to a bunch of illiterate tribal murdering savages living in the dark ages, and hell bent on some extreme fight is a disgrace.

Sorry Edgar, but I totally disagree where you are coming from.

OK fuck Saskatchewan. Where I said Saskatchewan, say Quebec. Where I said farmers, say cafe revolutionaries. Shall we kill all the university students in Quebec because the FLQ killed whatsisname? Actual terrorists, in Canada. I'm not making this up. How did Pee air handle it? ( you remember dogsbody right? Western Producer? Never mind). He rounded them up, but he undermined their support by making deals with Quebecois.
Your determination to defend your homeland does you credit, but it is causing you to miss the fucking point.

 

[edgar]

http://www.canada.com/components/print.aspx?id=0ef96e4d-dd9f-4c0b-b775-920e174a5c92
This ain't what I'm on about. I'm not talking about peace talks with the Taliban. I want them hunted to extinction. Who's gonna pop up to replace them, as leaders of the people who currently tolerate the Taliban because they see no better option? Let's find those ****ers and find out what it takes to convince them to join our side.

And how, exactly, do the cowshitkickers in Saskatchewan and the goatshitkickers in Afghanistan differ?

 

[1feral1]

What are you doing in Saskatchewan?

Running your own grow -op? Because you sound like you are on drugs with your twisted spin.

Your last post I am not even going to reply to, but again comparing us to them is like apples and oranges. It's actually disgusting, and if you are up for goading myself or others into a pissing contest, perhaps its time for a break on here for you.

We have heard you, and I can make no sense of it, so before this thread gets locked, we should get back on track.

 

[edgar]

What are you doing in Saskatchewan?

Running your own grow -op? Because you sound like you are on drugs with your twisted spin.

Your last post I am not even going to reply to, but again comparing us to them is like apples and oranges. It's actually disgusting, and if you are up for goading myself or others into a pissing contest, perhaps its time for a break on here for you.

We have heard you, and I can make no sense of it, so before this thread gets locked, we should get back on track.

Actually, I'm drinking malt liquor, thanks for asking.
You are driving this issue, so answer the fucking question, how exactly are the Saskatchewanites superior human beings to the Afghanis?

 

[edgar]

"I can't make sense of it", is actually kind of a piss poor argument.
What you are saying is here is another thing you can't understand.

 

[1feral1]

Mate you making ass out of yourself, call it a night, get off the swill, and quit while your ahead.

Remember its your integrity on here not ours.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Poop stirring types never put anything in their profile, perhaps because there is little put in?