Ignorant Civies

[slowmode]

I think its more that people around Canada need to be educated more about the Military and what we do. Education is the key to everything  

 

[Loachman]

For the last several years I've been participating in the Remebrance Day Speaker Programme, doing presentations in schools around the Toronto area. It's fun and satisfying, and provides kids and teachers with exactly the sort of education and exposure that they need.

See your PAffO for details.

 

[hauger]

A buddy of mine lost it one day on a guy....his response was so perfect I use it (softened and paraphrased) whenever this comes up:

Random Guy: "I pay your salary..."

My Buddy:  "Of course you do....I pay your salary....every time I buy gasoline or a tim hortons coffee or pay you to shovel my drive way I pay someones salary...that's how the f****** economy works, moron, we all pay each others salaries.  Live with it".

Random Guy: "........."

One thing I like to say to people is...Canada will always have a military.  Canada is too close to the US and has too many strategic points (arctic) not to have a military.  Canada might stop spending money and disband their military, but Canada will still have a military presence, it'll just end up being a military belonging to another country...and that'd suck since we wouldn't have a lot of say over what they choose to do.  Case in point, the US telling us to get our costal patrols in order, or they might end up doing costal patrols on "our behalf" whether we like it or not.  Another case in point.  We don't have much military coverage in the high arctic, but there sure is military up there...it just belongs to the US/Russia in the form of covert subs.

 

[Loachman]

One thing I like to say to people is...Canada will always have a military.  Canada is too close to the US and has too many strategic points (arctic) not to have a military.  Canada might stop spending money and disband their military, but Canada will still have a military presence, it'll just end up being a military belonging to another country...and that'd suck since we wouldn't have a lot of say over what they choose to do.  Case in point, the US telling us to get our costal patrols in order, or they might end up doing costal patrols on "our behalf" whether we like it or not.  Another case in point.  We don't have much military coverage in the high arctic, but there sure is military up there...it just belongs to the US/Russia in the form of covert subs.

"Every nation has an army on its territory - its own, or somebody else's."

I cannot remember who said that, and I doubt that I have it word-for-word.

 

[Gimpy]

"Every nation has an army on its territory - its own, or somebody else's."

I cannot remember who said that, and I doubt that I have it word-for-word.

Well to be fair, there are a few micro-states and nations without a standing army such as many of the Pacific Island nations and most notably Costa Rica. But I do understand the quote, and I have a feeling that this quote was before the time of these Pacific Island nations and the Costa Rican de-militarization.

 

[medaid]

No standing 'army' in name, but the Guardia Civil performs that duty. They may not be called the military, or the army, or what ever, but their areas of responsibilities include those of their army predecessors. I call that a standing military, regardless of what they want to call it.

 

[Gimpy]

No standing 'army' in name, but the Guardia Civil performs that duty. They may not be called the military, or the army, or what ever, but their areas of responsibilities include those of their army predecessors. I call that a standing military, regardless of what they want to call it.

What you want to call it isn't what their constitution calls it, wherein they specifically outlaw a standing army. Anyways a standing army is comprised of full-time professional soldiers, which the Guardia Civil are not seeing as they are also a municipal police force. Members of the CF don't stop military duties when they are finished with operations, they work day-in and day-out as soldiers. Guardia Civil work as soldiers when needed and full-time police the rest of the time, hence not a standing army in any sense of the word.

Either way this is just arguing semantics which will most likely lead nowhere as its all relative. So back on topic of ignorant civilians.

 

[aesop081]

getting farther and fatrther away from that track we were on...........

milnet staff-type guy

 

[benny88]

getting farther and fatrther away from that track we were on...........

milnet staff-type guy

    I'm on it! Uhhh....damn civvies!

 

[joonrooj]

I've seen good and bad feedback from civies when in uniform. After reading some of the comebacks for the negative feedback I'll share one of my own...not funny but it gets the job done.

girl in bar: I don't approve of the military.
me: why not?
girl: <shrug>I just don't think we need one.
me: I see.... Let me ask you something. If you saw someone running down the street right next to us being chased by someone who wanted to hurt or kill him, you would want someone to stop them right?
girl: of course.
me: well who would do it?
girl: the police would do it.
me: I see... so now, what if that person was being chased two streets away and even though you couldn't see or hear it you knew it was still happening. would you still want someone to stop it?
girl: yeah of course I would.
me: would the police take care of that one too?
girl: yep.
me: Well... let me ask you now.... how far away does it have to be before you just don't give a shit anymore?
girl: uhh... uhh.... i never thought about it that way...

Just thought I'd share one that worked for me.

Cheers!

That is awesome.
High Five.

 

[pteosborne]

The best I've heard in my short career is my buddy's (whos airforce) wife saying we shouldnt be in Iraq.  ???
..and shes married to the military!!! Oh well, ignorance is bliss, I guess.  :blotto:

 

[neilinkorea]

A buddy of mine lost it one day on a guy....his response was so perfect I use it (softened and paraphrased) whenever this comes up:

Random Guy: "I pay your salary..."

My Buddy:  "Of course you do....I pay your salary....every time I buy gasoline or a tim hortons coffee or pay you to shovel my drive way I pay someones salary...that's how the f****** economy works, moron, we all pay each others salaries.  Live with it".

Random Guy: "........."

That is like comparing apples and oranges.  If you choose not to buy a coffee from Tims, you can't be put in prison for it.  Try telling Revenue Canada that you have decided not to pay your taxes this year.  My point was not that the public"owns" service members and has the right to treat them as they wish, it was that the armed forces serves the public at the publics pleasure.  Now all of the arguments that soldiers work for the government not the people are symbolic of the root problem.  In a democracy, seperating the "people" and "the government" into seperate entities is dangerous.  We have been so sheltered and safe and prosperous we forget that our style of government is based on the fact that the power of government lies in the hands of the average citizen and we must protect that at all costs.  If we were more "possessive" of our government, maybe we would feel more of a connection to the departments under that governments control eg DND. 

One final thought about this topic.  Painting civilians in general as  ignorant and unsupportive of the military, based on the actions of a few, is like saying Canadian soldiers are all murderous animals because of the actions of a few in Somalia.

 

[appletreecdn]

That is like comparing apples and oranges.  If you choose not to buy a coffee from Tims, you can't be put in prison for it.  Try telling Revenue Canada that you have decided not to pay your taxes this year.  My point was not that the public"owns" service members and has the right to treat them as they wish, it was that the armed forces serves the public at the publics pleasure.  Now all of the arguments that soldiers work for the government not the people are symbolic of the root problem.  In a democracy, seperating the "people" and "the government" into seperate entities is dangerous.  We have been so sheltered and safe and prosperous we forget that our style of government is based on the fact that the power of government lies in the hands of the average citizen and we must protect that at all costs.  If we were more "possessive" of our government, maybe we would feel more of a connection to the departments under that governments control eg DND. 

One final thought about this topic.  Painting civilians in general as  ignorant and unsupportive of the military, based on the actions of a few, is like saying Canadian soldiers are all murderous animals because of the actions of a few in Somalia.

Hope I can say this without getting too much into all those poli sci stuff

In a modern liberal democracy like Canada, 'government for the people of the people by the people' is there to provide for common defense, to promote commerce and to provide a more tranquil society.  (Yes...those words can be seen in the US Constitution and those of many other countries.)  The powers does NOT lie in the hands of the average citizens.  Average citizens authorize/give mandate to the government (chosen from among the people to serve the people) to wield those powers.  In other words, the average citizens agree to be governed by the government but they are not the government themselves.  Hence, the military DOES INDEED serves the people but doing so through the government.  For what purpose?  To provide for common protection (in a simple sense from external and internal enemies).  So what really needs protection at all cost is 1. the government of the people by the people shall not perish against the will of the people 2. the people's right and ability to authorize and give mandate to choose from amongst themselves those that will lead and govern and to lead and govern. 

Hence, whether people or government are separable entities is irrelevant.  The government is a political entity 'manned' by members of 'the people'. 

So....should someone be disrespectful to a soldier (which is more often the case in Canada)...NO...unless the soldier is 'conduct unbecoming of a soldier'. 

Lastly....this thread started out as more of a personal experience thing and I don't recall seeing someone making the generalization that all civilians are ignorant or something along the line that civilians are generally ignorant and unsupportive of the military. 

Perhaps such an argument should be put in another thread.

 

[MARS]

I don't recall seeing someone making the generalization that all civilians are ignorant

No one here is doing that, rather, I think neilinkorea might have been making reference to the title of the thread....

 

[Richie]

I'm not sure I like the idea of civilians considering themselves the boss of the military any more than I would approve of a situation in which the military felt it had the right to intervene in political affairs. You folks were all civilians before you joined the military, when you joined up you swore some sort of oath to protect Canada. That Canada includes (so far) freedom of speech, freedom of assembly and all of the other freedoms central to any Western democracy. It is primarily these freedoms which you are protecting; not the government and not even the people (although you do obviously provide us civvies with physical protection from terrorism or invasion). The idea of serving to protect ideas is more abstract than that of protecting territorial integrity but it is certainly no less valid.

Richie

 

[ryananderson]

I think the fact that most "civilians" watch tv and get their facts from the media doesn't help the fact that they are so ignorant....lighten up...no one is forcing you to fight but I certainly respect the fact that you do, and as long as it's doing good for the world then it's ok by me.... I don't agree with what most of the American's are there for, which is purely to kill people, where we are there to help, so I commend you boys and girls!

Thanks!

 

[Sig_Des]

I think the fact that most "civilians" watch tv and get their facts from the media doesn't help the fact that they are so ignorant....lighten up...no one is forcing you to fight but I certainly respect the fact that you do, and as long as it's doing good for the world then it's ok by me.... I don't agree with what most of the American's are there for, which is purely to kill people, where we are there to help, so I commend you boys and girls!

Well, in the same statement where you state why you believe most civilians are ignorant, you go and make a statement that shouts ignorance.

Some of us have worked with Americans in theater, and many of our soldiers owe them their lives. I'd avoid making statements when you have nothing to back them up. That is ignorance.

 

[ryananderson]

I never said I wasn't ignorant...

 

[medaid]

Some of the people that I have high respect and regards for are Americans....

tread carefully, ignorance or not.

 

[ryananderson]

It's not my fault that I have talked to war vet's from America and they seem to just brag about the kills, not about how much they actually "helped".

Sorry for my ignorance.