Ignorance of civvies...

[pbi]

As Signalman and others have noted, the attitude of the Canadian public today is so much further ahead than where it was in the mid to late 1970's, that it's like a different planet. I was a young Militia soldier in those days, travelling in uniform on the public transit to my armoury in downtown Toronto. It was a rare trip that I did not hear some anti-military comment, get a Nazi salute, or have something yelled from a passing car. The CF got very, very little coverage in the media (of course-we weren't doing much deployed other than Cyprus in those days-our NATO commitment got very little attention except by the ban-the-bomb crowd).

We just simply NEVER got the coverage we regularly get today. Embedded reporters? Soldiers writing e-columns for the CBC? Media awareness training? Speakers' Program? Never had any of it. People serving today who are too young to remember those days may have difficulty judging just how much better off we really are now.  The changes began (I think) in the recovery period after Somalia, when we changed our approach to dealing with the public and the media. Coincidentally we have almost always been deployed in some dangerous, high-visibility place since those days, which has helped our public image. Today, and for at least the last few years, I rarely encounter the negative attitudes of the old days, and I see gestures of public support that would have been unheard of in the '70s.

There are always going to be Canadians who oppose the use of the armed forces in foreign or domestic policy: that is their right and so be it. We should not look for a single-minded population in a free and diverse democracy like Canada. The fact that we exist to guarantee those rights seems to escape them, but it is true nonetheless. We just have to keep on trying to stand up and educate our fellow citizens, as some of the folks on this great site regularly try to do.

Cheers

 

[NormR]

I just 2 cents,
A Friend of mine was given a link to a US web site: www.military.com and found this rather interesting Post.
although the issue here is the ignorance of Civvies and Child soldiers. I also thought that the writers perspective was useful in pointing out that our military forces over sea's though small did contribute.

So Not all Civvies are ignorant.
sorry to hijack but I thought this is a perspective we do not see often.


Link: http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,95568,00.HTML

Thanks, Canada
David Meadows | April 27, 2006
On April 22, 2006 four Canadian soldiers were killed in Afghanistan by a roadside bomb. Respects and heartfelt sadness go to the families of those heroes who stand alongside the U.S. in the Long War half a world away. While we focus on the war in Iraq, the fighting continues in Afghanistan where side-by-side the U.S. and one of its most loyal allies, Canada, engage the re-emergence of the Taliban.

Canada is like a close uncle who constantly argues, badgers, and complains about what you are doing, but when help is truly needed, you can't keep him away: he's right there alongside you. We have a unique relationship with Canada. We have different political positions on many issues, but our unique friendship has weathered world wars, global crises, and the ever-so-often neighborhood disagreement.

Canada has been with us since the beginning of the Global War on Terrorism. In February 2006, without fanfare Canada, leading a multinational force combating growing Taliban insurgency, increased troop strength in Afghanistan to 2,300. With the American military stretched thin against rising instability in both Iraq and Afghanistan, an ally that increases its troop strength is inspiring and deserves our respect.

Katrina was another example of our close family-like relationship. Katrina struck the Gulf Coast on August 29, 2005. Two days later, the Vancouver Urban Search and Rescue Team rushed from British Columbia, Canada to Saint Bernard Parish, Louisiana. In this Parish of 68,000 Americans, the first responders were Canadians. Overall, within the devastated Gulf Coast area, it appears Canada was the first responder outside of local efforts. They worked 18-hour days, going door-to-door alongside Louisiana State Troopers, rescuing 119-Americans.

While FEMA ramped up to surge into the catastrophe; while the administration and Louisiana fought for the politically correct way to respond; Canadian aid was already at work.

The Canadian Forces Joint Task Group 306 consisting of the warships HMCS Athabaskan, HMCS Toronto, NSMC Ville de Quebec, and CCGC William Alexander sailed to the Gulf Coast to deliver humanitarian supplies. They stayed, working alongside U.S. Navy and Mexican warships, to provide aid to Katrina victims.

Katrina was not an anomaly of our close relationship. When Hurricane Ivan devastated Pensacola, Florida in October 2004 Canadian humanitarian help was there also. Canadian power trucks roamed the streets and countryside helping restore electricity where Americans had a unique experience of running into workmen who only spoke French.

Canada took a lot of undeserved flak for failing to leap into Operation Iraqi Freedom when our administration sent us galloping across the desert. But Canada remains one of our staunchest allies in the war. When United States military forces were fighting up the highways in Operation Iraqi Freedom, Canada quietly increased troop numbers in Afghanistan and continued Naval operations with U.S. warships in the Persian Gulf.

I was at the Pentagon on 9/11, stationed on the Joint Staff. During the early hours after the attack, the United States closed its air space and ordered every aircraft within our borders to land immediately at the nearest airfield. Canada immediately stood up an Operations Support Post.

With civil aviation grounded, aircraft destined for the United States were forced elsewhere. Most landed in Canada. Re-routed travelers and flight crews were hosted at Canadian Forces facilities in Goose Bay, Gander, and Stephenville, Newfoundland; Halifax, Shearwater, and Aldershot, Nova Scotch; Winnipeg, Manitoba; and, Yellowknife, Northwest Territories.

Canada rapidly mobilized its forces. Within hours, the Canadian Navy was on alert with ships preparing to cast off immediately for any U.S. port to help victims of the 9/11 attacks. Canada's Disaster Assistance Response Team prepared to deploy from Trenton, Ontario. Canada dispersed CF-18 fighter aircraft to strategic locations throughout Canada. No politics. No negotiating. No questions. They were just there. Canada would have fought any adversary that approached the United States that day.

Canada has been such an integral partner with the United States in the Global War on Terrorism that on December 7, 2004 when President Bush awarded the Presidential Unit Citation to Commander Joint Force South for combat success in Afghanistan, he was also recognizing the secretive Canadian Joint Task Force 2 commando counter-terrorism unit.

The U.S. Department of Defense has awarded 30 Bronze Star medals for heroism in combat to Canadian Forces personnel. Some of those 30 died in action. Many of the others were wounded. These Canadians earned this American medal for heroism fighting alongside Americans. When we recall our own dead heroes, we must remember that these warriors gave their lives not only for Canada, but also for the United States.

Canada is more than a neighbor. It is a close family member with the gumption to disagree with its brother to the south but always there when disaster strikes and America needs help. For that, I salute you, Canada, and extend my respect for the sacrifices given by members of the Canadian Forces.

Sound Off...What do you think? Join the discussion.


Copyright 2006 David Meadows. All opinions expressed in this article are the author's and do not necessarily reflect those of Military.com.

 

[Recon_Guardsman]

I actually saw that 'letter' printed in the back of the National Post a little while back. Very heartfelt and thankful. It helped put back into focus the relationship we both have.

 

[Redbeaver]

For what its worth the well thought out posts you all post here have helped make this civvie a little less ignorant  8)

 

[zipperhead_cop]

For what its worth the well thought out posts you all post here have helped make this civvie a little less ignorant  8)

Thanks Beave!  Now if you tell two friends, then they tell two friends, and so on, and so on.....

 

[Cabose]

This is what I say to anyone who says that Canada shouldn't have an army.

"okay you think Canada shouldn't have an army.  Sure that sounds great I wont have to get up at five every morning this summer.  O wait Where did these boats come from the look like the north Korean navy...Shit I don't think this is going to go over well.  O look now we where all forced to join the army o look we just declared war on the states.  Well how do you feel about not having an army now.  O look right before you could answer you got shot O well I didn't really like you anyway." *walk away*

They probably wont have allot to say.
Cabose

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Does North Korea have a Navy?  ???

 

[couchcommander]

I believe it's what you'd call a green water navy (I don't know if I have the term right)?

Mostly oriented around costal defense. Global security has a bit on it.  http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/dprk/navy.htm

 

[Bobbyoreo]

Just read the article from the Globe. Its so nice to hear it put on paper!!!

 

[MrsSmith]

Just watched a speech of Gen. R.J. Hillier, Chief of Defence Staff from April 11, 2006 (coincidentally my birthday, very nice gift) at the Empire Club of Canada. The speech is marvelous: both inspirational and educational without being phony. He touched on our mission in Afghanistan, wheather we should have army, Harper's visit to Afghan and so forth. I highly recommend to check that one out, especially for civvies who have little or no information on the matter except from anti-war enthusiasts and media - should give you a nice perspective on things.

You can find this and other speeches here:
http://www.empireclubfoundation.com/events_previous.asp?Webcast=Y

 

[GO!!!]

I believe it's what you'd call a green water navy (I don't know if I have the term right)?

I think the term you are looking for is "brown water navy", which is generally referred to as a naval capability centered on riverine and littoral naval capabilities, and mining. Vessels are usually shallow draft, and weapons are centered on ballistic projectile and LOS (line of sight) platforms. There would also be an absence of a significant Air defence element and Capital Ships (Destroyers, AC Carriers).

Considering that the DPRK can rely on the Chinese for more advanced (and expensive) capabilities, and their primary strategic objective has been centered on their neighbors to the south, this would make sense. 

 

[paracowboy]

during the earlier stages of the "Peace", NK had a very well-established espionage system based around boats and frogmen. Does anyone (GO!!!) have any more info on that?

 

[couchcommander]

I just looked it up, and I think I was on the right track with the green water. You are right, a lot of it is riverine, but they do as well have a few frigates as well as some old submarines and a large number of missle boats.

Certainly not a blue water navy, but it seems to me (and I am no expert on the topic) that they qualify as somewhat more than a brown water navy (assuming the definition is shared - I define it as riverine and littoral capabilities) due to the fact they can extent their power out into their EEZ.

Once again though, I am far from an expert in this field.

 

[Recon_Guardsman]

The title 'ignorance of civvies' reminded me of something...
Im coming back from a BMQ weekend one time in my combats, and im starving. I stop by a Harveys to pick a burger (or four) and the lady at the counter asks me (that day was 31 October) if im in my halloween costume. Good times.

 

[Cabose]

Does North Korea have a Navy?  ???

I don't know its just the only Force that might be a "threat" that people would take seriously.  You could just replace it with any "threat" I guess.
Cabose

 

[Centurian1985]

Considering that the DPRK can rely on the Chinese for more advanced (and expensive) capabilities, and their primary strategic objective has been centered on their neighbors to the south, this would make sense. 

This is off topic, but IMO the Chinese-North Korean relationship is not as close as people would think.  China still has a few 'status quo' issues like their continual saber-rattling over the Taiwan issue and any penetration of their airspace/waters by foreign powers, but China has changed their relations with North Korea significantly over the past 20 years so that it is actually much more similiar to the relationship between the USA and Mexico.  They are protective of the NKoreans from US/European interest in the same way as the US would be protective of Mexico from communist interests.  The Chinese government sees illegal NKorean immigrants as a growing problem, while the NKorea government sees increased Chinese business investment as a future problem (much like the US and Mexico).  Although China is willing to support NKorea economically, it is more hesitant to supply actual arms to them as this is not in line with China's current foreign policies (playing nice on the world stage level and attracting foreign investment, both as part of attaining regional dominance). 

 

[Trooper Hale]

Maybe I'm too young to have ever experianced anything. Back home in Aus, i used to get public transport to a mates house before going out to the unit on the tuesday night, I'd jump on the tram in full cams and my big green esh bag and get nothing but the occasional nod from people. I mean I've had staring comps with 14-16yr olds who think they'r a lot tougher then they really are (Always private school kids "I just finished school, I'm trying to pretend that mum doesnt give me $50 pocket money every week and that i'm from the 'Ghetto'") but no one has ever said anything to me. I suppose we younger fellers are really lucky to be soldiering in a time when people (usually) support us and dont click there heels and Sieg Heil us on the street (A bit of the old "buttstroke, smash" with the elbow could help there).
I did have times in history Revolutions at school though (I joined the week after i turned 17) when I had clashes with my teacher. She once made the statement that the British Army in Iraq was full of people who had been in prison, unemployed, forced to join, tricked, were underage etc. I interrupted her to say that the British Army is an example for all those around the world of absolute professionalism and that i found what she said to be really offensive as some friends of mine are in the British Army. She said "Well its true", I said a whole heap of eloquent stuff...mainly "Well thats bullshit". It seemed to her that any base rumour about things that were going in Iraq had to be true and while i didnt know anything about the Americans, the stuff she would say about the Brits was really, really false and left wing.
But again, I've been really lucky, shes about the only person to ever confront me and insult my "Life-style" choice (The actual phrase she used! Like I was beyond help "just move him to the corner, i'm sure the twitching will stop").
Australians (This is a gross generalisation and I usually dont do it) seem to have a very neutral attitude to most things, we'r a people who found out our government deliberately lied to us and just quitely forgot about it, and the armys no different, every now and then we get the old digs on the street come and chat and on ANZAC day we'r heroes (Stripper in a Beret, YOUR BERET! is there anything greater?) but for the most part Civvies here just have a glance and move on. I think they appreciate it though, people are always friendly and the mothers with their kids coming to talk to you prove that they'r not scared of us.
Its the few that spoil it, not the Majority

 

[CDN Zipperhead]

Just to put in my 2 cents, the best and the worst:
The best was when I was in Cyprus in '88-'89 and about mid tour the City of Calgary sent over a HUGH poster with just about every Calgarians signature on it along with a pancake breakfast and an entertainment show. I felt great, we were the envy of all the other contingents and the embassy attaches. ;D

The worst was more recent. While escorting a group of Air Cadets, in uniform, on the BC ferries, we were yelled at and spit at and accused of teaching kids to kill and turning them into mindless killers and any number of curses that all seem to blend into each other now. Needless to say the kids were really shook up and we had to spend most of that day calming them down. :rage:

 

[Forgotten_Hero]

Stripper in a Beret, YOUR BERET! is there anything greater?

Indeed. A stripper in your balmoral!  ;D

As for the subject, I havent encountered anyone in person who made any smartass comment about the military or anything like that. Hell, the only time I've seen civvies pissed off at us was at the Wendy's/Timmies in Arnprior when we (along with 3 other units) stopped by on the way to Pet.

 

[pbi]

Just to put in my 2 cents, the best and the worst:
The best was when I was in Cyprus in '88-'89 and about mid tour the City of Calgary sent over a HUGH poster with just about every Calgarians signature on it along with a pancake breakfast and an entertainment show. I felt great, we were the envy of all the other contingents and the embassy attaches. ;D

The worst was more recent. While escorting a group of Air Cadets, in uniform, on the BC ferries, we were yelled at and spit at and accused of teaching kids to kill and turning them into mindless killers and any number of curses that all seem to blend into each other now. Needless to say the kids were really shook up and we had to spend most of that day calming them down. :rage:

Yes...well...consider the two locatoins you're referring to here....

Cheers