IEDs or Booby Traps?!

[Lav968]

For you EOD guys especially but all input is definately welcome...

First of all, what does our doctrine determine as the difference between these two?  The field troops are getting very frustrated.  Everything that looks out of wack is an IED.  Almost as if booby traps just fell off the table entirely.  We are all trained in booby trap clearance but we never do this in an ex.  I have done it once outside of my 3's and 5's.

Here's an example for ya.  Last May, we are prepping to do an Air Mobile Op.  It was delayed for the following reason.  4 Blocks of C4 underneathe one of the choppers.  Absolutely nothing hooked up to it and no measures taken to disguise it.  No wires or accutrements, just 4 plain old blocks of C4.  This - of course - was an IED so the ERS was called with EOD support to dispose of it (obviously PUCA).

Can someone give me a text book definition or atleast a reference for this?  My example was a very obvious one and I realize there must be gray areas but I would like to see the black and white for myself and everyone I ask around the unit has a different opinion.

Oh ya, one more thing, Merry Christmas Sappers.  Best to you and yours for the holidays.

Sapper477

 

[SprCForr]

The term "Booby Trap" according to our use of the term would cover IED's, as there ae two types. Explosive and non-explosive. It follows then that an IED couldn't be a non-explosive BT. B-GL-320-010/FT-001 and 002 doesn't define the term specifically. I don't have a specific EOD source to check.

Now there's a suggestion of Sect/Tp trg on a slow day. Go set some BT. Educational and Fun!


And of course, a Merry Christmas to you'n yours.

 

[Spr.Earl]

But!
Our training in regards to booby trap's is and has been based on conventional war fare but now we have a new enemy using new techniques which even confound the IED Tech.'s
Were do we draw the line?

If you are not sure call in EOD/IED

If you don't' know how to deal with the trap call in IED.
Why? You may be dealing with a collapsing  circuit etc.
Don't risk your life or your sections lives!

All the above are my own opinions.

Also I have passed on the question "What is the Dif. between a IED/Booby Trap"
When I get it I'll post it.
To be hounest I have never been taught the differance.

 

[McG]

Your example does not fit your question, but it does illustrate another question I've seen debated.   When your enemy is known to disguise IEDs as UXO, you may as well assume the worst until you prove otherwise.   (So the half buried 200 lbs bomb you just found to the side of the road may be an IED).

An answer for the question you've asked has prooven a little more elusive.   I've seen no text book definition to delineate explosive booby-taps from IEDs.   However, I would expect the only nature of explosive booby-tap that might not be considered an IED would be traps that employ only manufactured booby-trap devices (along the lines of the F1A1) to initiate firing.

I will look again in Jan.   I think there is a DOAD that gives an official direction on who can do what as far as CMD, EOD, and IEDD.   It may spell out an answer to your question.

 

[Kat Stevens]

I look at it this way:  All IED are booby traps, not all booby traps are IED.  In my limited experience, a booby trap is loosely defined as a deliberately placed device, explosive or not, intended to maim,  kill, or damage/destroy equipment, and to demoralize.  I suppose you could add the qualifier that a booby trap is not command or remote detonated, whereas an IED very well may be, in order to maximize damage.... sound fair?

 

[devilins]

From my understanding an IED is any device which contains an explosive, switch, power source and a detonator or booster.  This pretty much includes everything that we were taught on how to make a boobytrap on our QL5A.  This clearly does not include a grenade in a can tied to a trip wire or an F1A1 even though I have heard they use the grenade in a can as an IED problem on the course.  To help us out in this dilemma I have been informed by our IEDD teams that boobytraps for engineers are a thing of the past and that all boobytraps will now be treated as IEDs.  Any house that needs to be cleared of traps will be done by the IEDD team with their robots thus possibly saving the life of a sapper with a tripwire feeler and a flashlight.

 

[Kat Stevens]

I was always led to believe that IED was a term applied to a piece of explosive ordnance modified to function in a manner counter to its design, eg; a mortar buried upside down in a road to act as an anti vehicle mine.  At the end of the day, who gives a flying rodents rectum what it's called, let's get the troops adequately trained to deal with it.

 

[devilins]

In reality that would function the mortar as designed so it is not really an IED.  Of course that is if the mortar had been fired and the fuze on it was now armed thus making the PD fuze now sensitive.  In such a manner as you describe the mortar would only get run over, thus making it now a PUCA for a field engineer section.  This is me playing the the devils advocate though and I get what you are saying.  Let the people trained to deal with this stuff deal with it and all others who suspect that there is something fishy about it stay the hell away.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Counter to its design as in not launched through the sky to blow up a long way away.

 

[devilins]

Counter to its design as in not launched through the sky to blow up a long way away.

Exactly, as it takes inertia and spin in order to arm the fuze as well as pressure upon the nose on impact, not just pressure on the fuze.  Thus why during the movie Saving Private Ryan when the primers were struck and the mortars thrown it was just Hollywood glam.  Plus they would of burned their hands.  BTW any mortar men out there, try not to drop any mortars with the pins out on their noses...just in case.

 

[Kat Stevens]

In Vukovar in 92 we had two of Serbias finest get slivoed up and decide to play hot potato with a mortar....Any guesses as to the outcome? 

 

[devilins]

Those individuals were clearly playing with a UXO (Unexploded Ordnance) IE.  it was suppose to function when fired but for one manner or another did not.  So when our finest started playing with it it was bound to be set off.  Lets not be mistaken here, ERW (Explosive Remants of War) are different from UXOs and are far more common thus would be used as an IED.  As any ammo tech, CMD qualified engineer, or mortar man be that infantry or artillery can tell you munitions are designed to be safe to handle and transport.  I'm sure playing hot potato with a mortar that the fuze was not already armed would of done nothing to those fine drunken soldiers, so clearly you are referring to the above mentioned UXO.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

collapsing circuit?

 

[devilins]

Power is going through your wires.  When it is cut it sends a signal to a special switch which sets off your IED.

 

[Centurian1985]

The term "Booby Trap" according to our use of the term would cover IED's, as there are two types. Explosive and non-explosive. It follows then that an IED couldn't be a non-explosive BT. B-GL-320-010/FT-001 and 002 doesn't define the term specifically. I don't have a specific EOD source to check. Now there's a suggestion of Sect/Tp trg on a slow day. Go set some BT. Educational and Fun! And of course, a Merry Christmas to you'n yours.

To refine a bit further, these are the definitions I worked with when defining the subject for LEA officers I worked with, based on explosive/non-explosive, trigger, lethality, and purpose. 

Improvised Explosive Device - explosive device modified from its original form or created from miscellaneous pieces into a new unique form, using any form of trigger mechanism (i.e. push, pull, time, motion, temperature, etc.) intended to cause damage to a person or material in the immediate vicinity (in lethal range).  It could also be perceived as a signalling device (noide from the explosion), but is generally regarded to be for the purpose of lethal destruction, death, or damage.  This is generally regarded as including vehicle-borne devices (VB-IED's) and portable suicide vests/bombs.     

Booby Trap - explosive or non-explosive device that can be a device created for that specific purpose (i.e. trip flares), modified from its original form, or created from miscellaneous pieces into a new unique form.  Intended to either cause damage or signal the presence of a person or item, or to cause actions beyond the lethal range of the BT (i.e. set off explosives in a nearby building to prevent it from being captured).  Booby traps can be initiated by any mechanism except timing.  They can be lethal or non-lethal. They are primarily intended as safe guards or early warning devices to protect an area or item from being tampered with, or cause surprise/damage/death to persons who attempt to tamper with an area or item.  This includes trip wires linked to empty cans, fishing lines with hooks, flares, stake pits, deadfalls, snares, incendiaries, and devices designed to fire single-shot shells and bullets.

Example:
A red and white fruit can is lying by the side of the road. 
If it is an explosive device disguised as a fruit can (i.e. the device is inside the can) it is an IED. 
If the can itself is not part of the device, but is instead a trigger for device (i.e. picking up the can sets off the device underneath or nearby), then the can is part of a Booby Trap.

The differences when applied in North America are important (especially the lethal/non-lethal aspects), but there is probably no real distinction between these devices when used in Iraq and Afghanistan.  Pretty well every device I was informed on as being used in that part of the world was designed to be explosive, lethal, and have an impact on persons/material in the immediate vicinity of the device.

As a final note, I am not trained as an EOD tech or Combat Engineer, so some of my terminology may be incorrect or incorrectly applied. Would love to provide access to some of my documents and reference books on the subject, but I think I passed them on to the 'next generation' when I finished up my 20.  Will have to check my files and see what I can dig up...

 

[SprCForr]

I will look again in Jan.   I think there is a DOAD that gives an official direction on who can do what as far as CMD, EOD, and IEDD.   It may spell out an answer to your question.

Anything yet? It seems we are still running around in the same circle.  ;D

 

[El Gerco]

Booby trap or IED. I don't think it really matters what the device is, but more so,  who is best suited to defeat said device. If you had asked me this before my deployment (Athena Roto 3) I would have said any 043 section could handle the task. 

In my opinion now IEDD teams are the only ones in theatre (Afghanistan)  who are properly equipped to take on this task.

 

[AmmoTech90]

Exactly, as it takes inertia and spin in order to arm the fuze as well as pressure upon the nose on impact, not just pressure on the fuze.  Thus why during the movie Saving Private Ryan when the primers were struck and the mortars thrown it was just Hollywood glam.  Plus they would of burned their hands.  BTW any mortar men out there, try not to drop any mortars with the pins out on their noses...just in case.

I know this is an old thread but I just wanted to correct a couple of points.

Mortar bombs (60/81) do not require spin to arm their fuzes.  The fuzes used on US 60mm HE bombs only had some safety feature that required setback to remove (other than the pin).  So in theory what they did in SPR is in theory possible.  The point about burning your hands, well it's fairly easy to unscrew the primer on those old mortars or you could just put a piece of wood or something over the primer.  Not very plausible but entirely possible.  Note, that NONE of this is possible with current mortar bombs!

This was discovered when we bored in Wainwright and had seen SPR the night before.

D

 

[SprCForr]

[quote author=El Gerco ]
Booby trap or IED. I don't think it really matters what the device is...
[/quote]

The question we're trying to get a handle on is this:


[quote author=Sapper477 ] ...Can someone give me a text book definition or atleast a reference for this? ...[/quote]

as opposed to the "who does what, where".

 

[AmmoTech90]

Well taken from this thread: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/40803/post-348731.html#msg348731
is a definition of Mine and IED from NATO

Mine  - An explosive or other material, normally encased, designed to destroy or damage vehicles, boats, or aircraft, or designed to wound, kill, or otherwise incapacitate personnel. It may be detonated by the action of its target, the passage of time or by controlled means.
Improvised Explosive Device (IED)  - A device placed or fabricated in an improvised manner incorporating destructive, lethal, noxious, pyrotechnic, or incendiary chemcial agenst and designed to destroy, incapacitate, harass, or distract.  It may incorporate military stores, but is normally devised from nonmilitary components.

The DAOD on EOD say's we take definitions from AAP-6 for EOD/EO/IED/UXO but doesn't mention Booby Trap.  However the AAP-6 Booby Trap definition is:

A device designed, constructed or adapted to kill or injure, which functions when a person disturbs or approaches an apparently harmless object or performs an apparently safe act.

How's that for a starting point?