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"I Had Soldiers Break into Tears" says ombudsman

Matt_Fisher said:
I'll tell you one thing for certain.  I've never met a Marine clerk that won't dig their own fighting hole, shoot a man dead at 500 yards with iron sight,  be competent on a security patrol and know which way to place a Claymore.

I understand firsthand how a deployment can be a real bag-drive, but what these people are bitching about is pretty weak.  10 hour days behind a desk or computer screen?  Then 6 hours on sentry?  You're still getting 8 hours sleep.  You've got fresh, hot meals.  You've got access all day in the orderly room to email and DSN lines to call home.  What's to complain about?

Pathetic.

Matt first off I take umbrage with your comment of " Pathetic".
Most of our people over in the Sand Box have done 4 or more tours in the former Yug. plus Kosovo and even for those Eng. there did 1 or 2 tours just after Gulf 1.
Now this battle group are those who did the first Tour to aid your Country against Uncle Bini!!
They are out of Edmonton,1 CMBG.

This is a comment on our over taxing of our Forces.

In 97 I went in to Bosnia with a so called Eng. Field Sqn. which in reality is 150+ alas we were 90 all souls and the Men I went in with this was their 3rd Tour so please don't knock our clerk's.
I bet most of our clerck's have more Operational Gong's than most of your's and most of our clerk's do know how to shoot.


P.S. Matt,all told we have what only 60,000 all arms,including Reserves I'm proud of what my fellow members are doing.You try it with out the Super tech you Ham Shank's have and let's see how well the U.S. would do.
 
Earl - Matt's right...

Having been on Roto II and knowing how worked we were with 3PL's doing Force Protection I can sympathize with the guys over there now with 2Pl's.  Quite simply put there is NO time off - at best you are on 15min NTM - Your only days of are your HLTA.

When we do OP's we need the EME SEALS to man the gate - somethign they are not adequately trained for - now before the non combat arms folk get in a flap - I have done trg with the USMC and agree with Matt that that is how we must be - it is a waste of resources to have the 031's guarding the base - we/they shoudl be out patrolling and doing cordon and searches, raids etc.  The tail in the tours is LARGE and with a Recce Sqn, Eng Sqn, and 3 Inf Pl's (QRF,D&S, Recce) - meanwhile the other half of the cmp lie the (relative) life of Riley - like the typical Bosnia/Croatia/Kosovo wog camp with the frat and drinking etc...

I am surpirsed that a Strat or Patrica has not McEachern'd out and driven a LAV or Coyote over the Messes.




 
Kev,you have that right " We are all Infantry if need be"
But I still umbrage because not all of them are REMFS.
How are things going?
 
Earl,

Good point - but I don't have lots of sympathy for folks doing 10hrs of office work and an occasional 6hrs of guard - people have to understand that their safety is their own responsibility as well - or elese we go down the road which were are currently travellign and that creates a rift between the cbt arms (Armoured, Inf and Engr's - I left out Gunners due to their non-involvement in this Roto [no I did not mean you Gunner  ;) )  and the support trades.  Sunday routine is a REMF concept and not fit for this Roto.


I am basking in the glory of the Edmonton winter  :-\  Trying to decide which place I hate more...

 
I'm on Matt's side here.

Yes, Kabul has it's dangers and it's strains, but considering the fact that there are Americans doing their third combat tour in the sandbox (yes, in a two-way shooting gallery), we really should put things in perspective.   Canada's been blessed with extremely low casualties in the War on Terror.   We aren't sending kids home everyday from places like Fallujah or some Pashtun village.

Can these people cry - sure, go ahead.   I seen some people get fed up with some of the tour BS in oh-so-quiet Bosnia.   But don't go sobbing to the Ombudsman about how bad things are in the Army and acting like some victim, because we're not.   Suck it up, do you job, and be happy that you don't have to clear a mosque full of badguys or drive a convoy into Baghdad.   If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Sometimes, I think it is going to take a big shooting war for us to get our priorities straight.

My 2 cents

Infanteer
 
(Armoured, Inf and Engr's - I left out Gunners due to their non-involvement in this Roto [no I did not mean you Gunner  )

Kevin - Luckily there are a couple of gunners in Camp Julien...an island of sanity in a sea of discourse.  ;)

As far as the remainder of the arguments.  I'm on HLTA so I wasn't there when the ombudsman spoke to the soldiers in Camp Julien.  I caution against drawing conclusions over what he is reporting as he has his own agenda.  Are people overworked over there?  Some are, some aren't.  Same on every tour. 

Having said that, you have to remember that LFWA has been the "goto" area for the Army for the last 5 or so years.  No other area has done 3 tours back to back (we've done it twice) and it causes alot of stress on the area, its formations, units and soldiers.  Roto 2 has little in common with Roto 0 and Roto 1.  In essence it is a different misision and has its own unique and difficult challenges to face due to the environment, the organization of the Task Force, and the lack of defined AO. 

From my perspective, all the elements are working very well together and we have formed a strong team.  Well done to the soldiers deployed out there.  :salute:
 
Like many others (mostly of the Cbt Arms ilk) I am siding with Matt.  On the Reservists wanting to go, that is a sour point to many Regs who loose posns to Reservists and have to stay back as Rear Party.  Another sour point is the new rules of who can CC a turreted veh.  Why am I no longer qualified to crew command a Coyote, having CC'd and Gunned Coyotes, Tanks and Lynx's, but a Reservist with no Coyote Crses at all can be parachuted in to do a CC job?  We have serious problems in the Land side of things.  In our Regiment, we have numerous people heading back over to Afghanistan, having signed waivers, while others are chomping at the bit for a tour.  We have guys who have done all the UNPROFOR, SFOR, IFOR, KFOR and then ISAF, while others have none.  In some cases some have taken Release and joined a Reserve Unit to get a Tour. 


As for LFWA getting so many taskings......LFCA isn't doing too shabby either.  Last year the Bde was doing two Taskings simultaneously, Bosnia and Afghanistan.  Those who were left, did the thankless job of Rear Party and prepped 5 Bde for their next tours.  Petawawa was literally a Ghost Town.  It is a serious problem that needs immediate attention.  That Three year Training Cycle they dreamt up in 2003, has already proven to be a failure.  Units can not keep up this tempo for much longer.

GW
 
Infanteer and KevinB,

Good to see that somebody else is not seeing the world in rose-tinted glasses.

Earl,

Like I said earlier.  I understand firsthand the strains of a deployment.  As a reservist I'm looking at doing another mandatory deployment from June 2005 to March of 2006 after having been in Iraq from March through October of 2003, so I think I know what I'm talking about serious Optempo.  Pretty much all the Marine Corps is either in Afghanistan or Iraq, getting ready to go, or has just gotten back.  The same goes with the US Army.  And as Infanteer pointed out this is the second or third tour in 2 and a half years for alot of them.  Also don't forget too that the Marine Corps regularly pumps its units out for 6 month MEU deployments in peace or war.  It's pretty average even in peacetime for a Marine to spend 18 months at home then 6 months deployed in either Okinawa or as part of a MEU.

While you may resent my rudeness towards the comments of those that complained so loudly in public, I will ask you this.  Do you not think that these few are doing a tremendous dishonour to the record of Canadians a gritty fighters that prevailed in such places as Vimy Ridge, Ortona or Kapyong because of their spirit?  Who is more rude, me for calling a spade a spade or those who dishonour the work done by those around them by crying about the fact that they don't like having 14 hours of off-duty time a day in a forward area?

There is a time and a place to address your concerns.  The office of the Ombudsman is a legitimate forum for serious problems.  Serious Optempo and back to back tours, etc. are legitimate concerns, but when someone gets all teary eyed about having to pull their share of security duty I have very little sympathy.

Like Kevin said, if you don't like the heat, get out of the kitchen.  No-one is preventing these people from applying for a release once they get back to Canada so that they can get a nice 9-5 job.
 
Thank's Gunner,
1 CMBG has been on the go since the end of Gulf 1 if wish to know.
That's when 1 CER deployed as a whole Regiment to the head of the Persion Gulf in Umkassar.
UXO clearance and clarifying the border!
Then the next full Regimental deployment was Roto 0 UNPROFOR etc.

I don't have to dictate the Regiments tours as you know they have many under their belt and I Have seen and do see the changes amongst my friends.
 
Matt we have not heard the whole story true.

I posted on the benefit of the doubt,which we are all allowed yes?
The CDN Forces have been and are streched which is a given.

O.K. was it a newbie?

In 95 you could not go over seas unless you were QL. 5 qualified or had X yrs in, now we are sending QL 3'? over seas because of the shortage of qualified people?
May be this is were this has come from?

Matt I've been a member of our Militia since 76 I volunteered back last July for the Sand Pit but alas my  Boss' went.
 
Secondly it appears many of the poeple on tour keep gonig back again and again.
With many sitting on the sidelines.

No one held a gun to the heads of people on Roto II to get them to go...
 
KevinB said:
Secondly it appears many of the poeple on tour keep gonig back again and again.
With many sitting on the sidelines.

It's not by choice either.....  >:(

Regards
 
Matt, I kind of agree with you. We in the CF have it alot easier than you guys down south w/Iraq conflict/war.
My first tour overseas was a very busy tour with average working days between 12-18 hours. If members are suffering PTSD, then thats a reason for breaking down or if a troop has home issues than again I can understand.
If it is because of long hours, man thats the job.
I would like to know more about who this is breaking down (i'll find out, i almost always do).
And yes, the CF is stretched too thin.
 
Matt,

I just have to say that the Op Tempo of the Marines I worked with in Haiti was unreal.  The SSgt running the ASP had got back fron 8 months in Iraq in October, went to Haiti in March, while there was put on notice that if he didn't go to Iraq again in October then he would definately be going in January 05. So that means best case scenario 13 months out of 24 he's gone and in month 25 he goes again, worst case he's gone 17 out of 24 with anywhere from another 2 to 4 months to go before heading home.
The EOD guys were even more heavily tasked.  Half the crew were getting out pdq because of it coupled with good jobs they could get outside.
I have serious doubts that the CF could sustain a tempo like that without bleeding pers.  A major cultural shift in how we perceive deployments would have to take place, at least in the Army.
So hats off to all the hard working Marines out there.
 
I always wondered about Canadian op tempo vs American or British op tempo. US forces certainly seem to be busy in the past few years, and the Brits, from what I can tell, have always maintained an unreal operational tempo. Anyone have any solid info on US/UK units and their overseas time?
And how much overseas time to various Canadian units actually get? How does it vary between Inf-other Combat Arms-CSS-Air Force etc?

I can only speak from what the article says, and those in theatre will have the real picture, but it looks like something went wrong for someone over there. Supposedly we're ready for War - but long hours on a relatively safe base, with plenty of amenities, is breaking our troops? I hope not.

I think its been said before, but out of a military of 58,000 (roughly) personnel, we can only sustain 1500 on operations at a time, something is very wrong.
 
Well,

To be brutally honest, I believe that we as a military are pathetically weak.  And I don't mean that in the combat capability sense (although that is also sadly true), I mean it in the sense of personal and institutional fortitude. 

If we have troops complaining (let alone crying!!) about being deployed and working 18/24, then we have fundamentally missed the boat somewhere in training those individuals as to what they SHOULD (not could) expect on operations.  If we are molly-coddling our junior soldiers, then we have no one to blame but ourselves for creating abjectly false expectations about what it is that they should expect to endure when push comes to shove and requirements dictate that they get on with the job despite not having a full "swing-shift", stainless steel toilets, internet access, fresh rations, etc, etc.

I'm not going to sit here and tell "war stories" other than to illustrate a point.  When my former unit deployed to Afghanistan on combat operations back in 2002, we wore FFO (with plates) continuously for 3.5 months.  We had no stoves to heat washing or coffee water for the first month.  We went without showers for 2 weeks at a time during the first 3 months.  We ate out of foil bags and burned our own excrement.  We worked 7 days a week, 18 hours per day.  We lived in 2-per Recce tents on a gravel floor.  We had no HLTA, and we had no projected R&R.  We didn't have an end-tour date, and half-way through the tour we still fully expected to be there until the deed was done.  9 months?  12 months?  Whatever.  The fact of the matter is that I NEVER saw anyone crying or snivelling about their self-selected lot in life on Op APOLLO....

All of the above leads me to wonder if we haven't created an entirely irrational and self-defeating expectation of "entitlement" amongst our soldiers in recent years.  My theory being that all of our so-called "peace support operations" of the past (and present) with their "4-star" accommodations, their guaranteed R&Rs and HLTA, their connectivity with hearth and home, etc, etc, have set the conditions where Canadian troops now harbour unrealistic expectations of comfort and security.  Perhaps it is time for an institutional "wake-up call".....  A bit of "tough love" if you will....

Don't get me wrong.  I am all for making life as painless as possible for the troops that are doing the business.  But aside from the logistic burden and institutional dangers of doing so, are we perhaps doing the bayonets themselves a disfavour?  Are we making life so comfortable that the troops are losing sight of the aim?  I honestly don't know the answer to that one, but I can tell you that living the austere "WainCon" life in K'har kept us pretty focussed and sharp.  I'd love to see someone do a quantitative study on the deletorious (or not) effects of a "soft life" in an operational environment.  It would be fascinating.

Physically crying to the Ombudsman?  I certainly hope not.  If so, those troops need a swift kick in the nads.  And if that sort of wake-up call doesn't sort them out, then they need a trip home to turn in their kit.  Quite frankly, that is pathetic.  Been there, done that.  You can get used to anything if you have the right attitude/outlook and the requisite unit (or sub-unit) spirit to carry you through. 

This crap pisses me off to no end.  Yes, there is undoubtedly an element of media inflation at work here.  But that could not exist without the whinging spark to initiate the media fire.  A very, very sad state of affairs.  Quite frankly, I find it horribly embarassing.  Especially coming from troops who plant their butts on stainless steel crappers when they are not scarfing fresh rations or taking a hot shower in between their horrific work shifts, scheduled R&R, and HLTA.....

Just my rather jaded $.02

 
Game, set, and match....

I remember we had a discussion about the disadvantages of the "Big Base" mentality that our military has picked up when looking at deployments.  Is the Ombudsman's story only the natural outcome of trying to import Canada, luxuries and all, to any overseas operation?

Personally, I'm embarrassed as well.  Any image of the stoic soldier that makes due with what he's got that the Canadian Army presents is quickly drowned with stories like this, which reinforce the notion of the "peacekeeping" Army.
 
On the Reservists wanting to go, that is a sour point to many Regs who loose posns to Reservists and have to stay back as Rear Party.

George,

        How can we be stretched too thin then. Is the army that ignorant about who wants to go and who doesn't?? As for the RCD's, yes, I was aware of the jealousy of the B Sqn guys for ROTO 13, and I would be too, but thats not the choice of the reservists.

Cheers
 
Mark C - from my perspective, well said.  That same historian's perspective points me to the US experience in Vietnam - where soldiers on combat operations would return to oasis-like base camps with cold beer, steaks and all the amenities of home, as well as the "right" to an R&R leave as well as a DEROS (Date of Expected Return from Over Sseas) written in stone after 12 months (or 13 if he was a Marine).  I am sure there has been some ink spilled over that subject, a glance through US military journals may provide you some of the interesting reading you seek.

 
If this was a pay site I could see comments like that below - but it isn't So less verball Bullying is in order - the succes of the site and the credibility of its Senior and Junior members will not be enhanced by language which is found inside the Canadian parliament.

Slim said:
I would expect more from a Sr member on this site    

Bud, I think you need to slow down and read more, speak less, before you go off on another member of this site...Especially that one who has been there and done the job...

Take this for what its worth!

Slim
 
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