"I Had Soldiers Break into Tears" says ombudsman

[Armymedic]

I believe SeaKingTacco has hit it on the head,

Its all relative...

Take the average medic, supply tech, clerk, infantryman, etc. Matters not the trade or the job.

Here in Canada we work a 8hr day (0730-1600), 5 days a week, in a secure environment, where driving thru rush hour may be your biggest danger. Even if its a bit stressfull we can go home or get away from work someway, somehow.

Now your thrust into an environment, away from home, away from your stress relief...where everyone has told you that people want to kill you and you have to be alert at all times. You are in a position that demands your full attention for 10 hrs a day, and with no days off or mornings to just lay in bed.....

and your just getting by, functioning effectively...but now this week, you on camp security for an additional 6 hrs. Now you don't have that time to decompress slightly every day. Heck you just barely got time to put your laundry in, shower, and sleep before going the next day. :-\

Now add in getting "Mugged" or "Gapped" for the smallest detail which was passed in O gp the night before while you were on shift.

And its Melfaquine night, and you can't sleep..... :boring:


Yeah, they aren't getting shot at, yeah, they are getting paid good money...

But like Bossi said, and I will reemphasize, everyone has their breaking point.

And after all if the moneys so good...

How come so many do not want to go back? :-\

 

[the 48th regulator]

took me close to ten years to realize I was crying...

Yep I would have called these cats weak for weeping, would have said to suck it up too.

but times are a different.    As MB said;

show some f***ing compassion, (well not in the exact words, i have embellished)

Otherwise I will make you cry. . . .

hehehehe

tess

 

[Acorn]

Then we are failing in training (what a surprise). We need to identify people who can't take the pace of operations in training, and then suggest they seek other employment if they can't take it.

I cracked in training, and I think I'm better for it (for some strange reason my sgt and pl sgt thought I should carry on.) I did 14-16 hour days in Bosnia, with days off being rare (I wasn't with a Cdn BG, so no mandated day off every week) for six months. I returned to Canada grinding my teeth and stressed out, but I somehow soldiered on.

I think part of our problem is offered expectations: we tell people that ops are stressful and we have a high level of operational stress. So we get what we expect. I now think I fell victim to that attitude myself a few years ago.

We need to strike the balance between the "cult of muscular Christianity" and the "cult of entitlement."

Yeah, some soldiers will break into tears. Should be no shame in that. But where does the group hug end, and the strength of character begin?

Acorn

 

[McG]

It has been noted that the BG is undersized....especially on the Recce side, very common knowledge.

It is not a BG.  It is a recce squadron with about 700 other soldiers deployed to support it.

 

[muskrat89]

Well, as someone from wayyyy outside looking in, and acknowledging I have NO operational experience....

Growing up an idealist, I have been moved to tears in both military life, and in civilian life - not by hardships, but rather frustration. In my experience at least, "sucking it up" or "ignoring the pain" were always far easier than "fixing the system" or living with the flaws that no one had the will and/or power to fix.....

The idiocies of "the system" that many of us gripe about daily (no political will or funding, no mandate, etc) - today's serving soldiers are bearing the brunt of it. Many, it seems, without the years' experience of developing "coping mechanisms".....

I think maybe seaking tacco was onto something....there is more here than meets the eye

 

[SeaKingTacco]

We need to strike the balance between the "cult of muscular Christianity" and the "cult of entitlement."

Acorn- It is an interesting idea. I still don't know that I know the right balance to strike, even after 19 years in the mob.  I have seen stressful situations where people that I didn't think had what it takes rise to the challenge and do truly outstanding things.  I have seen much more "talented" individuals perform surprisingly poorly.  I have surprised myself both good and bad.  I have survived a few situations that nearly cracked me and learned to be better for the experience.  I have also reacted badly to stress and done some really stupid things post-deployment because of it.

I guess I'm beginning to learn that I am human and so are those around me.  All of us, regardless of training, experience or motivation are going to react differently to stress.  Should we berate those who cry?  In my opinion- no.  Should they be coddled?  Probably not.  Should you lend a fellow soldier an ear so that they can unload their feelings and then try to help them regain perspective?  Amen.

I'm still trying to put myself in the headspace of the Ombudsman- he flies to Kabul, spends two nights on the ground, sees a couple of soldiers cry and alarm bells go off in his head, so he convenes a press conference.  Mind you he has never (to my knowledge) spent any time in uniform getting dirty so that he has no real way of putting what he has just seen into any form of perspective...and we get another scandal du jour.

Maybe I'm being unfair to the Ombudsman.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Maybe I'm being unfair to the Ombudsman.

I think you're reflecting what it is the media does in this country.  "investigative" my ass.  Not to cut down the soldiers, but this is what I meant with my initial disbelief.  Any little thing that can be taken and blown out of proportion to feed somebody's agenda, will be.  That can be good, that can be bad, no idea what is what in this case (very enlightening reading the comments of those who have been there, done that however).  But I place little faith in anything that gets posted on here from a newspaper or news website.  It almost never jives with what those on the ground are saying.

 

[Mortar guy]

Now add in getting "Mugged" or "Gapped" for the smallest detail which was passed in O gp the night before while you were on shift.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I was only in Julien for two weeks and I got Gapped!!!! I was sitting in the NCE tent at about 20:00 listening to my discman in a room full of guys with headphones on their head watching DVDs on their computers. The Gapper comes in and says: "you can't do that, sir, it's illegal". Headphones? Illegal? Anyway, it was kind of a rite of passage! I nearly cried.....  :crybaby:

I remember working 14-20 hours days (20 only if I was Duty O) in Kosovo for three months straight before I went on R&R. While I was stressed, I was nowhere near crying! I just went to the gym or played floor hockey to burn off the tension.

MG

 

[bossi]

... getting "Mugged" or "Gapped" ...

Yup - definitely a "right of passage" (I was in Camp Warehouse, and friends of mine would go down to Julien looking for the Mugster/Gapster ... as luck would have it, I never got caught ...).
Funny, though, that the RSM 3 RCR and Bde SM were never mocked like this ... hmmm ...
(kinda makes ya wonder what they were doing right ... in contrast to ...)

Anyway - a propos to the topic of this thread, thought I'd post a link for the latest edition of Dispatches
(and, as my Int friends taught me ... there's no such thing as "merely a coincidence" ...)

STRESS INJURY AND OPERATIONAL DEPLOYMENTS

 

[Mortar guy]

Totally off topic but: Bde SM Ford was the nicest CWO I ever met! Great guy. That may explain why morale at Warehouse was so much better than Julien.  ???

MG

 

[Recce41]

The new troops will be 8 car troops:
 2 Coyote x 3 Patrols of Coyotes
 1 Tp ldr patrol, 1 UAV veh, 1 Anti Armr veh?/LAV III

 

[Franko]

It is not a BG.   It is a recce squadron with about 700 other soldiers deployed to support it.

If you look a bit closer I said.....

Perhapse all this "Tired Soldiers" news will get the BG(-) brought back up to proper size?

See the little (-) ? That means it is smaller than a BG....Not a BG at all.

My point is it should and hopefully will be brought up to proper size to perform the ops it does with no "Plug and play" going on.

Regards

 

[McG]

It is not even BG(-).  It is a Recce Sqn with an exorbitant amount of Sp.

 

[Bograt]

Isn't "Plug and Play" a Windows 95 feature. I was under the impression that we were still using 3.1.

Back on topic, it appears to me that the military is getting a lot of press coverage lately- all supporting large capital investments, and troop increase. Do you think that the PMO is reading the papers? What do you think the military will look like in the next 15 years?

 

[rounder]

And I believe that people can be brought to tears due to the fustration of attempting to do a high priority, high stress role like camp security properly when your tired, cold and homesick, and your sect is 1-2 pers undermanned due to leave and/or illness.

Trust me when I say I have seen grown men and good soldiers cry for less.......

  That's really too bad. I feel bad for those people. However, if they can't take it (for whatever reason) they should come home immediately as to not become a threat to others. Now, if we're talking about the lack of numbers for the Roto's... well I know of many reservists ITCHING to go. USE US... ABUSE US... BEAT US... PUT US ON A 10HR PATROL.... AND WE'LL GLADLY DO A CAMP SECURITY SHIFT AFTER THAT.... WE WILL GO!!!!!

 

[foerestedwarrior]

I am pretty sure "plug and pray" came out in windows 98....... :-\

I agree that their are ALOT of reservists that want to go, my unit had a mitfull of poepl turned away from the tour going over in feb.

About the tears thing, I have no operational experiance, but i feel that the op. tempo may just be such a system shock to their body, that it is messing with them. this is speculation, so take it as you will.

 

[Franko]

... well I know of many reservists ITCHING to go. USE US... ABUSE US... BEAT US... PUT US ON A 10HR PATROL.... AND WE'LL GLADLY DO A CAMP SECURITY SHIFT AFTER THAT.... WE WILL GO!!!!!

They are the one's who normally have problems afterward, due to not having the support systems in place for re-intergration.

Not only that, it takes a while to get the reserves up to snuff for Roto's. The one we took for Roto 13 had so many problems a Capt (who will remain nameless) was fired for being a sack 'o poo. There were a few incidents over seas as well, 90% involving reservists. These were pers who shouldn't have gone in the first place but due to numbers.......

Regards

 

[rounder]

Franko,

    You are right WRT you ROTO 13 comments. I was a reservist on that ROTO and someone made a big mistake by no giving us the ability to replace our bad apples. I can speak from experience because there was atleast one soldier in my sect that should never have deployed. This problem has since been remedied (I think) and if the proper selection process exists (as it did on 2 Pl A Sqn) and reservists are easily capable.

 

[bossi]

Totally off topic but: Bde SM Ford was the nicest CWO I ever met! Great guy. That may explain why morale at Warehouse was so much better than Julien.   ???

This is perfectly on topic - leadership is a crucial element in mitigating operational stress.
Thus, it's no suprise that CWO Ford was awarded the Meritorious Service Cross (!)  BZ!!!

 

[bossi]

And, here's some more info on the Ombudsman's visit - from my perspective, very accurate ...

Soldiers made to play tour guide: Marin
`Military tourists' called `huge ordeal'
Troops shuttle visitors around Kabul

Bruce Campion-Smith, Ottawa Bureau

OTTAWAâ ”Canada's overworked soldiers in Kabul have found themselves saddled with another task â ” tour guide.

"Military tourists" â ” business and community leaders flown in by the armed forces for tours of the base and the war-torn city â ” are taxing an already overburdened contingent of Canadian soldiers, military ombudsman Andre Marin said yesterday.

While meant as a way to boost the military's profile, these all-expenses-paid trips offered to community leaders and in one case, a defeated Liberal candidate, is causing friction amongst the soldiers who are forced to entertain the visitors for days on end.

The visitors can show up 10 at a time â ” as they did last week â ” creating a big headache of organizing escorts, convoys and security to shuttle them around Camp Julien, the Canadian base, and into the city.

Soldiers derisively refer to it as the "safari club."

"The first thing they want to do is go buy a rug in downtown Kabul," said one military official.

"It's a huge ordeal," said Marin, who visited Kabul himself last week and heard firsthand the complaints of the troops.

Marin says he kept his own visit to the base last week short â ” just 48 hours â ” because he recognized the imposition it places on the soldiers.

"I've heard complaints about the numbers of visitors, too many visitors coming through the base," Marin said.

One of those visitors, Greater Nanaimo Chamber of Commerce president Russ Burke, admits he thought "someone was pulling his leg" when he got the defence department letter inviting him on a two-week tour of Canada's military operations in Croatia and Afghanistan.

Visiting Kabul last week, Burke says he was taken out on a reconnaissance mission into the hills around Kabul, shown some of the local villages and a bombed-out palace, a local landmark, and lunched with the Canadian ambassador in Afghanistan.

The group was shuttled around in a Bison armoured vehicle. After some complaints that the group didn't get to see much of Kabul itself, the military used G-wagens to show them bombed-out sections of the city.

Still, he said showcasing Canada's armed forces in action serves a valuable purpose.

Just back from his own visit, Marin is sounding the alarm after he found that overworked Canadians troops are nearing the breaking point. He will present his concerns, outlined in a 25-page memo, when he sits down with Maj.-Gen. Marc Caron, assistant chief of land staff.

Defence Minister Bill Graham vowed that Marin's warning about the burden on Canadian soldiers will be taken "very seriously."

"What the Canadian public has to understand is that when we reduced our force in Afghanistan from 2,000 to 700, obviously we reduced the scope of the mission as well," he said.

But Marin has suggested that Canada cut its troop strength too deeply, leaving too few soldiers in Afghanistan for the job they have to do.

full Toronto Star article