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I am a CAF member & I want better pay and benefits (a merged thread)

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George Wallace said:
At the same time, it is not the fault of the Public Sector Unions for having fought for pensions.  Many Private Sector companies have pension plans for their employees.  Perhaps it is time for those who do not have some sort of pension plan in their workplace to stand up and fight for one.  Those not in a position to be in a Union or workplace that is large enough to facilitate one, should then do some financial planning of their own and create a "Retirement Savings Plan".  The fact that so many in this country can't plan past the ends of their noses, or further than the present, should not have them rallying against those who have a plan for their retirement.  "Generous" payments of pensions to those who have worked towards their pensions, only reflects on the lack of knowledge of those protesting.  What is even more disconcerting, is not that Public Sector, Military and RCMP pension plans are being affected, but that the public is totally ignoring the "LAVISH" pensions that our political figures have garnered for themselves, with much less time in service to their country, province, community.  Where is the uproar there?

So, you're advocating what the McWynne government is planning on doing? Imposing more fees on employers and workers alike to float a pension fund for those that can't afford one.

It a money grab. I'll just about bet that, while not part of the General Revenues Fund, McWynne will be able to dip into the dividends in order to fund her pet projects. More Ontario Liebral smoke and mirrors. "We're helping the impoverished" while they rob us blind............again.
 
recceguy said:
It a money grab. I'll just about bet that, while not part of the General Revenues Fund, McWynne will be able to dip into the dividends in order to fund her pet projects. More Ontario Liebral smoke and mirrors. "We're helping the impoverished" while they rob us blind............again.

No, it will be like the Caisse des Depots in Quebec - an investment fund where ideology will triumph over sound investing.
 
dapaterson said:
Define "Lavish".  Do you know the terms of the MP pension plan?  Have you ever stood up for election - with your job at stake every four years?  Would you take years out of your peak earning period to try?

Would you rather have a political system that only permits the idle rich to run for office?

The terms are six years service. They need to be elected at least twice. Short of that, they get a return of contributions.

Candidates take a huge risk regardless if they're not in a coronation riding like rural Alberta. I don't see a six year pension for life vice return of contributions making the difference.

To paraphrase earlier in the thread, its a calling. One that I don't have.  If someone's risking their ability to pay their mortgage by not getting elected three times in a row, they've got more immediate problems than are compensated for by the MP pension system. I don't see it as the decisive difference in encouraging less than wealthy leaders from politics.
 
Navy_Pete said:
The pension argument is a bit of a red herring, as most people now will be unable to truly retire on a full pension, and it's only getting worse.  If you were to get an incremental pay raise in a new career and do something smart like pay off your mortgage early and invest a bit, you are probably better off financially.

I think the biggest kicker is probably the large size of even a modest mortgage now; it's getting increasingly unaffordable for most people to do anything less then a 20+ year mortgage.  Combine that with kids in school or something else similar, and folks work well past 60.

Money completely aside, with all the ISSCs coming down the pipe the work I really like to do is mostly going to be contracted.  So with all the fun work going, and our system getting increasingly paralyzed by bureaucracy (DPS anyone?), getting harder to find a reason to stick it out.  I think you can almost have more a direct and positive impact on the Navy working for a future ISSC then you can in the actual Navy, which is a bit ludicrous.

Pete - you've nailed a couple of good points there.

WRT the point on ISSCs though:  Is it a bad thing that skilled long service personnel like yourself "transfer" from duty with the RCN to duty with an ISSC provider? 

Without wanting to create a storm about the relative physicality of the various services I believe that, at least for the army's combat arms, there is merit in moving long service personnel from the active list to the reserve list while preferentially employing them in ISSCs.

My rationale is that most of the Combat Arms field is a young man's game. They need to be physically fit for field service.  And like pro sports players they wear out early.  However the skills that many of them pick up during their field careers are invaluable both to their parent service and, accordingly, ISSC providers.

If the individual in question puts in his/her time in field service and then is "transferred" to an ISSC then those skills are retained and the individual's career is potentially lengthened.  Between being retained on reserve status and the increasing requirement for ISSCs to deploy further and further forward in support working for an ISSC would not mean the individual necessarily gives up on field duties/sea duties right away, nor would it require the individual to sever completely connections with the military world.  It would put the individual in a better position to pick and choose "postings" and manage their own career.  Alternately it would better place the individual to transition completely out of the military world into civvy life.

From the government's, and the "institutional service's" position it would decrease the need to retain skills in the deployable, uniformed force which would free up positions for youngsters in the front lines meaning that a greater proportion of the 65,000 authorized regular force positions could be "teeth positions" with "tail positions" (like - for example - Small Arms R&D - being contracted out to ISSCs with long service SA experts on their staff - or marine engineers - or weapons systems operators).

Advantage for the government is not so much in terms of the cost of maintaining a national defence capability as allowing the government to supply that capability in the face of a "skeptical" public and permit them to sell a Zero-growth defence plan (Zero-growth in authorized PYs).   

At the same time the budget can be more easily manipulated (not always a bad word) so as to funnel defence supporting activities through other government funded activities - labour force training, R&D, regional supports, foreign relations......

The idea, like so many (most) of mine, is not new.  The most recent model is from before WW1 when the Commissary and the Wagon Train were commonly private ISSCs. 

I believe WW1 to have been the aberration in history because it coincided with the arrival of miraculous technologies that were not commonly understood.

Prior to WW1 the army could commandeer a farmer, his horses or oxen, and his wagons and get good immediate service out of them.

During WW1 the army needed to teach the farmer how to drive and maintain his brand new petrol driven wagon and create a whole new logistical supply chain to support them.

WW2 followed suit on WW1.

We have followed suit on WW2.

But now everybody knows how to drive a truck and could easily be commandeered, along with the Hertz rental fleet and supply good immediate service.

More tellingly most of the miraculous technologies are being applied first in the civilian world and only after much struggle and debate, in the military world.  ISSCs - as civilians - are better placed to parlay those miraculous technologies into real time support to the field elements as they are freer to experiment with things like, for example, platforms.  Eyes in the sky via satellite, blimps, aerostats, UAVs, 737s, Beech Airs or even Textron Scorpions, or fleet refuelling via Waves, Berlins, Cantabrias or via DC10s or Airbuses - all those debates go away.  All the end user has to do is sign a contract to have a given good or service delivered to them at a particular time and place.  Managing all the extraneous risks associated with platform selection and mixed fleets also all go away from the service and become the problem of the ISSC provider.

Sorry for the long, and meandering, post .... got onto a hobby horse again.
 
recceguy said:
So, you're advocating what the McWynne government is planning on doing? Imposing more fees on employers and workers alike to float a pension fund for those that can't afford one.

It a money grab. I'll just about bet that, while not part of the General Revenues Fund, McWynne will be able to dip into the dividends in order to fund her pet projects. More Ontario Liebral smoke and mirrors. "We're helping the impoverished" while they rob us blind............again.

Absolutely not.  I have many questions as to McWynne's plans.  Do all Ontarians benefit from her plan?  Do new immigrants to Ontario receive the same benefits as a lifelong resident?  Would someone moving from Ontario to Alberta in search of employment still be eligible to receive their Ontario Pension?  Would someone returning to from outside Ontario to fulfill their retirement plan, receive benefits from the Ontario Pension Plan?  Would Ontarians be able to collect if they moved to another province or country on retirement?

I agree.  It is a ill-thought scheme on the part of the Ontario Liberals that makes no sense.  Unlike the national plans, which cover all provinces and territories, this one is fraught with potential problems in its administration as to whom is and whom is not eligible to receive benefits.
 
As I've said to my wife, I will never be $$ rich from serving in the CAF, I certainly won't be poor either.  I get paid, steady;  break a leg?  No penalty to my pay, even though I can't do my job for a while.  I was lucky enough to get into a trade that has spec pay and an environmental allowance, but I had to apply, be successful etc to have it.  Some make far less than me, other make more.  Regardless, I have a nice home, my wife drives a new car, and we have money to "do stuff" when we have time off.  Her medical/dental are great because of our PSHCP coverage.  If I die at work, she will be bill-free and never really have to work a day in her life again unless she wants.  All in all, not much to really complain about on the QOL side. 

Aside from all the pay and benefits stuff, the big reason I love my job is that very few people in Canada, and even the CAF, get to do it.  No PS employee will ever get to earn their pay the way I do, see or do what I get to do, be part of that 'something' that is different than pretty much any other job in the civilian world.  Oil patch dude might take home more a year than me, and good for him.  That job and life strikes me as EXTREMELY boring compared to where I work...

The QOL I have, from the job I have (one of the best NCM jobs in the CAF IMO) leaves me feeling prettyyyyyyyyy lucky I get to do what I do.  The fact that I am just starting 16 days of summer leave makes it even sweeter...glass half full type I guess.
 
dapaterson said:
Define "Lavish".  Do you know the terms of the MP pension plan?  Have you ever stood up for election - with your job at stake every four years?  Would you take years out of your peak earning period to try?

Would you rather have a political system that only permits the idle rich to run for office?

We already have that.  The average Joe can't fund a campaign without injecting some of their own cash to do so, putting it out of the reach of many Canadians.

The last batch of NDP rookies aside, none of the serving MPs are going to starve if they don't get re-elected.  They're lawyers, economists, accountants, and the like.  The pension they're eligible to receive (and yes, I have looked up their benefits) is lavish - too lavish.  Yes, an MPs job is demanding, and they're remunerated in salary ($163,700/yr) to reflect that.  There's no reason why their pension benefits should be pegged at 3% per year of service when the PS, CF and RCMP are pegged at 2%.  As I said, they can go out and get another job if they get turfed.
 
Occam said:
We already have that.  The average Joe can't fund a campaign without injecting some of their own cash to do so, putting it out of the reach of many Canadians.

The last batch of NDP rookies aside, none of the serving MPs are going to starve if they don't get re-elected.  They're lawyers, economists, accountants, and the like.  The pension they're eligible to receive (and yes, I have looked up their benefits) is lavish - too lavish.  Yes, an MPs job is demanding, and they're remunerated in salary ($163,700/yr) to reflect that.  There's no reason why their pension benefits should be pegged at 3% per year of service when the PS, CF and RCMP are pegged at 2%.  As I said, they can go out and get another job if they get turfed.

So, they're paid about the same as a BGen.  Unlike the BGen, the MP can't draw a pension until age 55.
 
dapaterson said:
So, they're paid about the same as a BGen.  Unlike the BGen, the MP can't draw a pension until age 55.

That's okay.  The MP doesn't spend a career doing all the dirty work that leads up to being a BGen, and it's not like we have BGens retiring and drawing pensions at the age of 30.  How old would a switched on, fast-tracked BGen be?  Maybe 40, with 45 being perhaps the average? I'm okay with paying a BGen (or a Cpl) his pension 10 years earlier than a MP.

Like I said, most MPs had careers before they were elected, and most go back to those careers after politics.  The pension is a little too golden for the short time most of them spend in office.  :2c:
 
There are plans to fix the pension disparity that MPs enjoy.  Right now they pay 14%.  Plan is to move it closer to 50. Drawing it at 65 vice 55 as well.
 
dapaterson said:
Define "Lavish".  Do you know the terms of the MP pension plan?  Have you ever stood up for election - with your job at stake every four years?  Would you take years out of your peak earning period to try?

Would you rather have a political system that only permits the idle rich to run for office?

I have a problem when they get raises while everyone else gets freezes or cuts. However, the fact remains most MPs take a pay cut to be an MP. That is part of the reasoning behind their pay.
 
I'm a reservist, former Reg Force.

My reservist don't complain about pay or benefits. They do this because they love doing it.
 
Jim Seggie said:
I'm a reservist, former Reg Force.

My reservist don't complain about pay or benefits. They do this because they love doing it.

:facepalm: Oh Jim, Jim, Jim. What have you just done  :dunno:
 
Jim,

Terrific your people are not complaining to you.
absent of a complaint, does not absolve an issue.

One of our PRes sailors this week  asked a
redundant question a few post back (drawing from a different thread)
asking about commuting assistance and not knowing to ask for TAA.
Through this website, the member's concern is answesrd and if needed
continued guidance to resolution.

It's a nice axiom that we a b!ching about the degradtion of pay and benifits,
but much like the reminder when WWII ended:
- First they came for...
-Then they came for...

My point being, this is FRP 2014, for R/P Force.
 
Jim Seggie said:
I'm a reservist, former Reg Force.

My reservist don't complain about pay or benefits. They do this because they love doing it.

Glad the hobby squads are happy to bend over and take the pay reductions. Maybe they can take a bigger cut so the rest of us that do this as a job can keep our take home stable.
 
RADOPSIGOPACISSOP said:
Glad the hobby squads are happy to bend over and take the pay reductions. Maybe they can take a bigger cut so the rest of us that do this as a job can keep our take home stable.

What a prime example of the "I am entitled to this" generation...... ::)

What else should we give you?
 
RADOPSIGOPACISSOP said:
Glad the hobby squads are happy to bend over and take the pay reductions. Maybe they can take a bigger cut so the rest of us that do this as a job can keep our take home stable.

Really now is this necessary?


Do you realize that many of the reservists....sorry "hobby squads" often have to jump through hoops to deploy on ops with the "professional " army? And you know what....they can do just a good a job as you "professionals".

I rarely have  to deal with troops fighting, impaired driving, sexual harassment etc ....but my Reg a Force counterparts see it very Monday morning.....so wind it in mister.....

Maybe you can come show me how it's really done.....

 
... And on that note, this thread will now get away from the tired Reg vs Res topic.

Carry on arguing between those who believe CAF pay is extravagant, those who believe it is adequate, and those who just want more money now.
 
MCG said:
... And on that note, this thread will now get away from the tired Reg vs Res topic.

Carry on arguing between those who believe CAF pay is extravagant, those who believe it is adequate, and those who just want more money now.

perhaps instead of arguing about how large the pie is, maybe we should look at how its sliced up, look at all the allowances we get, and extra pay (http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-benefits/toc-ch-205-officer-ncm-allowance-rates.page), not to mention spec pay for some trades. It makes no sense to me how an EO tech can get spec 1 pay, but not say a vehicle tech, weapons tech(L), Geo tech or a handful of other trades for that matter. I would argue to be competitive with the civilian world something like spec pay would be needed for vehicle techs, since a QL5 Vehicle tech could easily make more money on civi street.
 
Would it not make more sense to remove many, perhaps even most trades from the spec list and then apply spec pay only to that small fraction of CF trades that are in the most intense demand in the private sector?

I know it's heresy (and, waaaaay back, a half century ago I was a Group 3A tradesman when that level of trade's pay meant that a junior Gp3A corporal earned more than a middling senior Gp 3 sergeant) but shouldn't we aim to have no spec pay at all (maybe make a one time (taxable) payment on passing Gp 3 and Gp 4 course for selected trades) and pay everyone for a mix of technical skill, physical demands and risk? Why is an electronics technician worth (paid) more than an infantryman? I know the training is long and academically difficult, but, generally, the working conditions are a lot better ... and safer! (Once again, I speak from (very dated) experience, but I was both a Leading Infantryman and a Radio Mechanic ... I got paid a helluva lot more for being the latter, I'm not sure I deserved the extra pay based on just the technical/academic skills and knowledge.)
 
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