How good is our training?

[Pugnacious]

That was the strange part..I pointed out the Tigr9 is the hunting rifle version on the SVD, made in the same factory, and pretty much the same beast, but not prohibited or restricted (or so they said then), and this totaly stumped the Government person I was talking to when they compared the data sheets I sent them from the factory in Russia:

http://www.izhmash.udm.ru/arms/svd.html
http://www.izhmash.udm.ru/arms/tigr9.html

And they had to forward my questions off to yet another person (into the void)...4 months later and still no reply.
It's like they opened a magazine, jumped back, hid under chairs, and said oh that looks scary..better prohibit it! ;D

Sorry to go off topic...just one of those strange mysterys in life.
Cheers!
P.

 

[ringo_mountbatten]

Being restricted doesn't mean your not allowed to buy it or use it. You do however need to apply for a non-restricted AND restricted licence.

The army doesn't give you any sort of licence for firearms, they do train you how to use a host of different weapons.

I'm not that current on the laws. I remember a while ago the government was trying to ban   weapons with a "military type action". (not sure how far that went).   Some bolt action rifles have a military type action so they would in essence be banned as well. (as told to me by the game wardens)

The Dragonov was made from the ground up as a sniper rifle, you don't get much more "military" than that. Sometimes to be black listed all a firearm needs is a bad name or history. (Rugar mini-14)

i think after the russo shooting in toronto and the fact a ar15 was the culprit that the govt will come down hard on assault type weapons once fall sessions in the houses start.  fair enough that the weapon in question was probably not a legally obtained weapon, but still there is little need for cdns to own these weapons. 

 

[Slim]

Origionally posted by Pugnacious

Does the Army train and issue you a restricted firearms licence?

The Canadian Armed Forces do not fall under the Canadian firearms laws and, therefore, do not have to licensed the way any other governmental, police or business has to with respect to carrying a weapon, loaded or otherwise.

I know because, having carried concealed while on duty in the CF and having contact with local police I have had to explain to them that a member of the CF is entitled to carry a loaded firearm in the execution of their duties without a license and regardless of their dress of the day or current tasking. (Example-moving a bunch of rifles from place to place. The rule is that there must be a person with a loaded pistol in the vehicle doing the transferring. The combat arms guys and galls will know what I'm talking about.)

The various police forces across Canada usually have their respective police association hold their license to carry.

The CF is the only entity in Canada that this applies to. The link to the Cdn firearms centre is below.

Slim  

http://www.cfc-ccaf.gc.ca/en/default.asp

 

[Pugnacious]

Thanx Slim!
That is interesting stuff, and good to know.
Cheers!
P.

 

[big_johnson1]

The Canadian Armed Forces do not fall under the Canadian firearms laws and, therefore, do not have to licensed the way any other governmental, police or business has to with respect to carrying a weapon, loaded or otherwise.

I know because, having carried concealed while on duty in the CF and having contact with local police I have had to explain to them that a member of the CF is entitled to carry a loaded firearm in the execution of their duties without a license and regardless of their dress of the day or current tasking. (Example-moving a bunch of rifles from place to place. The rule is that there must be a person with a loaded pistol in the vehicle doing the transferring. The combat arms guys and galls will know what I'm talking about.)

I hate to tell you this but I've transfered weapons on several occasions, and we have never had to have a loaded pistol carried with them. It's one thing to post a guard, but we've never had armed pers guarding weapons.

 

[Pugnacious]

"I hate to tell you this but I've transfered weapons on several occasions, and we have never had to have a loaded pistol carried with them. It's one thing to post a guard, but we've never had armed pers guarding weapons."

I remember a few years back a Quebec biker gang robbed a Canadian Army truck, and took a bunch of weapons and ammo.
IMHO Not to protect such stuff with an armed guard(s) or escorts is sheer stupidity, and socially irresponsible.

Cheers!
P.

 

[MJP]

The Canadian Armed Forces do not fall under the Canadian firearms laws and, therefore, do not have to licensed the way any other governmental, police or business has to with respect to carrying a weapon, loaded or otherwise.

I know because, having carried concealed while on duty in the CF and having contact with local police I have had to explain to them that a member of the CF is entitled to carry a loaded firearm in the execution of their duties without a license and regardless of their dress of the day or current tasking. (Example-moving a bunch of rifles from place to place. The rule is that there must be a person with a loaded pistol in the vehicle doing the transferring. The combat arms guys and galls will know what I'm talking about.)

I hate to tell you this but I've transfered weapons on several occasions, and we have never had to have a loaded pistol carried with them. It's one thing to post a guard, but we've never had armed pers guarding weapons.

I've seen it before, although it is not a regular occurrence by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[Pugnacious]

"The Canadian Armed Forces do not fall under the Canadian firearms laws and, therefore, do not have to licensed the way any other governmental, police or business has to with respect to carrying a weapon, loaded or otherwise."

So back to training...does this mean that a CF member can take his or her C7 off to a local rifle range to get some practice?

Mind you the Armalite carbines are looking like a good option right now.
Any ideas which one is the closest match to the C7?
http://www3.mb.sympatico.ca/~jhipwell/riflear.htm

Also which Elcan sight is used on our C7s rifles?
http://www.armament.com/elcan/index.htm#pic1

Cheers!
P.

 

[Jarnhamar]

No.

 

[D-n-A]

No, a CF member can not sign out their issued weapon an head off to a civvie range to shoot it.



This is the elcan sight the CF uses
http://www.armament.com/elcan/elc34.htm

As for a weapon, any M16 style weapon with a flat top upper receiver(to fit the elcan sight) will do
http://www3.mb.sympatico.ca/~jhipwell/ar10a4spr.htm like this

 

[Pugnacious]

Exellent!  ;D
P.

 

[Jarnhamar]

To get the topic back on track, how about this.

Instead of how good is our training, How "good" are the soldiers we are currently turning out?

 

[Slim]

"I hate to tell you this but I've transfered weapons on several occasions, and we have never had to have a loaded pistol carried with them. It's one thing to post a guard, but we've never had armed pers guarding weapons."

You guys are making me feel old!

When I was in the rule in transferring weapons from place to place, in the reserves, was that one member of the vehicle or convoy had to have a loaded pistol with them. Usually the CQMS or one of his toadies. Will it repell an attack by bikers intent on stealing a bunch of weapons...of course not. It was just a rule you had to follow. No more and no less!

Slim

 

[big_johnson1]

To comment from the Engineer side of the fence, I think we're doing quite well. My unit has had several deployments down to the US to work side by side with the Air National Guard units, and we've always surprised the heck out of our hosts. Our guys are highly cross-trained, and very resourceful compared to the average US ANG soldier. We have repeatedly taken on jobs that we were told we would never complete, then not only did we finish what we started, but we had enough time left over to take on other tasks as well.

We do have our share of problems however, as often CE sections working base side never get the cross training that a Construction Troop or Airfield Engineering Flight would get. Base-side, the sections are often isolated, with each trade having minimal contact with the others. In the CTs and AEFs, composite sections of several trades often work hand in hand, with tradesmen switching roles constantly from supervisor to supervisee as the task dictates. This teaches teamwork and how to take on tasks we aren't necessarily trained for.

Personally I'm proud of what I see on the news as well, mainly reports of how the hard army trades are doing overseas, showing that we may not have the equipment of some of the countries, but we use what we do have to it's maximum effectiveness. And before you all go off on me about how we need more money, better equipment, etc etc, remember that we do get a lot of money, it just needs to be spent more efficiently. I'll bet a good load of DNDs budget is wasted on equipment contracts that are given to companies based on politics rather than economics (ie some politician gets himself re-elected in his constituency rather than saving money..) Just look at what the cancelled helicopters that we ended up buying some of anyways cost us: $400 million I think.


Chimo!

 

[pbi]

As a currently serving soldier, my opinion is that at the individual and sub-unit levels we are one of the best trained armies in the world, including the US and UK.   (I specifically exclude any discussion of SF here, as I have no real idea how we stack up...). I base my opinion on 30 years of service, both Reg and Res, several overseas deployments, a number of exercises involving troops from other nations, some military course time spent in the US and in Canada with members of foreign armies, and loads of anecdotal experiences from Canadian soldiers at various rank levels, Reg and Res, in most MOCs. As well, you could throw in comments and observations from various other sources like "Soldier of Fortune" or "Outdoor Living Network" (Not very authoritative perhaps, but interesting perspectives all the same...)

Our soldiers are, in general, far better trained at these levels, and this proves itself constantly when we deploy on operations or on exercises with other nations, particularly the US. A few very good examples are the high praises heaped upon 3 PPCLI by the US forces in Afghanistan, and the outstanding peformance of Canadian troops as Opposing Forces (OPFOR) at the US Army's National Training Centre. To that you could add our performance on international sniper competitions, and the victory of a Canadian armoured troop at a recent US Army Armoured Branch gunnery competition (against M1 Abrams!!!)

While other armies may be superior to us in some aspects at these lower levels (Brits are generally physically tougher, US has more money invested in training technology, US Marines are generally more physically fit, etc) no one army that I am aware of combines the same high quality human material with a pretty damned good training system (when it works, that is, and when it is funded properly). In particular there simply is no equal to the Canadian NCO: they are our "secret weaopn" and in my opinion/experience they are our saving grace. They combine great intelligence and initiative with experience and a sense of humour (and a healthy dose of sarcastic skepticism) .As well, we must learn very early in our careers to do "everything with nothing" and we become masters of this to a degree that confounds our US counterpatrs.

I am quick to admit that at the higher levels of life,(above battalion) although we have good people and good kit, we simply cannot stack up against larger and better funded armies (especially the US). There is no substitute for actually commanding real formations (brigades and bigger...) in the field on operations and our Army offers very limited scope for this. We also lack the massive firepower and logistical capability of larger armies, although we do send NCOs and officers on exchange with other armies (such as US, UK) to keep our hand in and stay aware of what's going on. For example, Canadian Army officers served (and are serving) with US forces in Iraq as exchange officers-this is not a secret. Canadian Army officers and NCOs teach at US and UK military schools.

Give me a well trained Canadian soldier, Reg or Res, any day. We have nothing to be ashamed of. Cheers.

 

[pegged]

It's kind of funny to run across posts on what the closest Armalite rifle is to a C7. I'm 17 at the moment but when I turn 18 I will be getting my FAC and purchasing a firearm, probably from Armalite. Interesting to see 7.62mm M16 style rifles, talk about beefy. Anyone have an idea on the price of a C79 sight? I was going to just get an M15A2 off of Armalite, without the Picatinny mount, but if it's possible to purchase an Optical sight, why not get the A4 heh.

Anyway back to the topic at hand. I just completed my SQ and had the best Sgt. as a section commander (best soldier I have seen in the Military, too). He would tell us about how well trained our troops are, he specifically noted about our recce patrols being the best in the world, I thought that was pretty interesting.

 

[Pugnacious]

O' Shea... I'll PM you the info I just got from the great guys at wolverine supply.

Cheers!
P.

 

[Dave 514]

Hi:
It is said here in the US that the CF have the best trained men with the worst equipment. I'm not sure that's true about the equipment..

I just came back from visiting the Ld SH (RC) which in recent competitions with our Armour beat us almost everytime. They used the outdated Lep 2s. I gather in 4/5 years those will be replaced with the new LAV IVs. You know the ones with 105mm using reduced loads so as not to tip it over at 3 and 6 o'clock. The Straths impressed the hell out of me as highly trained and above all highly motivated proud regiment.

To the respondant Slim that said when armed with a handgun guarding the transfer of rifles from A to B, that if attacked by Bikers he'd not repel the boarders. It's a shame that training with a handgun, is so poor and confidence is so low that you feel you couldn't do your duty. The lack of training with a handgun is poor here too.

Here to be precise, when I was in competion, if some one came to me and said they knew how to shoot because they'd been in the military, I gave them a wide berth. Most of'em couldn't hit a barn door at two feet if they were in it.

Thank you all for serving.


David

 

[Slim]

Hi:
To the respondant Slim that said when armed with a handgun guarding the transfer of rifles from A to B, that if attacked by Bikers he'd not repel the boarders. It's a shame that training with a handgun, is so poor and confidence is so low that you feel you couldn't do your duty. The lack of training with a handgun is poor here too.

There are lots of great shooters here...My point was that if an organized criminal gang decided to steal automatic rifles while they were being transported, they would presumably use larger weapons than pistols... and there would be more of them.
Slim

 

[pbi]

I agree with your observation. In fact, if you check our (sad) history of military weapon losses, you will find that almost all of them were either by neglect/stupidity, or via "inside jobs". Don't forget that over the past couple of decades we have had our own small share of criminals in the Army, with some having biker connections. This is not confined to us: when I was in Quantico, the US Naval Investigation Service scooped up some Marines working in a base arsenal who were selling weapons to criminals. In my opinion, the biker organizations in this country are too smart to get into anything as messy and public as armed robbery of military weapons: they'd rather just take some of their drug/prostitution funds and buy what they want. Cheers.