Hamas invaded Israel 2023

[brihard]

The irony is that Palestinians had the closest they were likely ever going to have a two nation solution in 2005…full control of their territory in Gaza AND no IDF in Gaza. It only took until…checks second had in stopwatch…2006 to screw that up, depowering the Palestinian Authority and supporting Hamas, as though that was going to give them a better life than having the PA support them.

Yup, Hamas is a cancer that makes much of this non workable.

 

[suffolkowner]

This locks us into a situation where the status quo is the best case. Demographically and politically, time is not on Israel’s side in the long term. Their Arab population has a higher rate of growth than their Jewish population. A permanently ghettoized Gaza will just continue to get more and more radicalized, in a denser and denser civilian population. That doesn’t bode particularly well for the viability of the same repeated military options over future decades.

Both groups are living in a permanent homeland. Neither is going anywhere. Neither can or will be driven out. Any long term solution has to reconcile itself to that immutable fact. History shows that you cannot keep a people down indefinitely; not in the numbers we’re talking here. Palestinians have to have something to hope and strive for if we want something other than “martyrdom” to appeal as a career path. At present they have practically nothing- a largely destroyed open air prison and nowhere else for most of them to go. So it’s fine for you to declare something fantasy, but I don’t see you proposing anything better in the totality.

There is no solution? A failure of modern morality and ethics? It would be hard I think to argue that Israel should follow the same path in the West Bank as it did in Gaza given the outcome

 

[Quirky]

Palestinians have to have something to hope and strive for if we want something other than “martyrdom” to appeal as a career path. At present they have practically nothing- a largely destroyed open air prison and nowhere else for most of them to go. So it’s fine for you to declare something fantasy, but I don’t see you proposing anything better in the totality.

This problem is not for Israel to solve.

 

[brihard]

This problem is not for Israel to solve.

As a sporadically occupying military power who have an economic stranglehold on the occupied territories, they certainly occupy a few seats at the table.

There is no solution? A failure of modern morality and ethics? It would be hard I think to argue that Israel should follow the same path in the West Bank as it did in Gaza given the outcome

For the sake of accuracy can you describe what you feel that path is? I don’t want to reply based on assumptions about what you mean. Gaza and WB are related but very distinct situations.

 

[suffolkowner]

The path would be abandoning the settlements and internal security?

 

[brihard]

The path would be abandoning the settlements and internal security?

I’m not sure if you’re asking or answering? And do you consider those two things to be integral to each other?

 

[suffolkowner]

I’m not sure if you’re asking or answering? And do you consider those two things to be integral to each other?

answering and asking as it seems obvious to me. Is that not what Israel did in Gaza? And no I dont think the settlements are necessarily integral to the internal security situation in the West Bank or the greater security of Israel

 

[Fabius]

This problem is not for Israel to solve.

Israel is obviously involved in the solution but I agree that they can’t solve it in any context nominally permissible in today’s society.

The Palestinians need to want to solve it and need to want to make a two state system work. I don’t think it’s credible to argue that the Palestinians have wanted to make a two state system work at any point since it was first proposed and established as the goal in 1947.

Certain Palestinian leaders have wanted to make it possible but they have seemingly failed to get the population to agree.

The world seems to think that a two state system will bring peace and stability and that Palestinians and Israelis will live in harmony. Without Iranian manipulation that may be true but so far history seems ambivalent at best on the likelihood of that occurring.

It’s something to consider what comes next if a two state solution fails.

 

[Good2Golf]

The Palestinians need to want to solve it and need to want to make a two state system work. I don’t think it’s credible to argue that the Palestinians have wanted to make a two state system work at any point since it was first proposed and established as the goal in 1947.

Agree.

Furthermore, it seems that the Palestinians, such as they are, would actually like a “one-state solution”…from the River to the Sea…which fair to say, is less than realistic. So long as their proxy-funded overloads living the billionaire life in Doha, Palestinians on the ground will continue to have a tough life.

The world seems to think that a two state system will bring peace and stability and that Palestinians and Israelis will live in harmony.

Not sure whom you’re referring to with such a panaceic view. I think most believe that a two-state solution is the “least-worse” solution out there.

 

[Fabius]

What is the actual least worse outcome?

I think most states follow something similar to Canada’s position.

"Canada recognizes the Palestinian right to self-determination and supports the creation of a sovereign, independent, viable, democratic and territorially contiguous Palestinian state, as part of a comprehensive, just and lasting peace settlement," says the government's statement of Canadian policy on key issues in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

PM Trudeau has stated last week that "Canada's position is crystal clear. We believe the only way forward for the region, indeed the only way forward for a safe and secure Israel, is to have a Palestinian state that is also safe and secure with internationally-recognized borders. We believe in a two-state solution."

I bet Israel has thought about what happens if the Palestinian state in the two state solution doesn’t believe in a safe and secure Israel. How does the UN and western states plan on ensuring that both states are safe and secure from each other and that there is peace.

I think everyone wants it to work but for it to do so the international community needs to think through how it will fail and then work to mitigate that and ensure both groups believe they will be safe and secure. That is going to be hard to achieve.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

“Reduce the Palestinian population in WB and Gaza”? That sounds pretty ethnically cleansey. We have various language for when a country expels an ethnic population from the lands it lives and was born and raised in. None of those terms are complimentary.

Easy to say when we live in the 2nd biggest country in the world. Israel is small, like really small. Every inch of land matters. The Palestinians have acknowledged that they intend to win a demographic war and supplant the Israels. There is also the matter of water, which is a scarce commodity in the region. Eventually things are going to snap and it will make Oct 7th look like a day in the park. So do you wait till then to bring the hammer of god unto your enemies or do you start pushing them out with far gentler means. This is not a case of "if it happens" but a case of "When". So choose your poison.
Ethnic cleansing, perhaps we can take India to task, much of Africa, Azerbaijan, Balkans, every Arab country, Myanmar and I am am sure I missed a few.

 

[Kilted]

The irony is that Palestinians had the closest they were likely ever going to have a two nation solution in 2005…full control of their territory in Gaza AND no IDF in Gaza. It only took until…checks second had in stopwatch…2006 to screw that up, depowering the Palestinian Authority and supporting Hamas, as though that was going to give them a better life than having the PA support them.

The Gaza strip was never part of the Promised Land, so Israel could be less concerned about handing it over, that is, if it wasn't run by an organization that wanted to start the second holocaust.

The West Bank is a little bit different as it was included in the Kingdom of Israel.

 

[Good2Golf]

The Gaza strip was never part of the Promised Land, so Israel could be less concerned about handing it over, that is, if it wasn't run by an organization that wanted to start the second holocaust.

The West Bank is a little bit different as it was included in the Kingdom of Israel.

Which is why the PA/Fatah isn’t FAFO’ing around much in the WB.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The solution in Gaza and WB is to do what the Arabs did to the Jews from 1948 to 1971, which is to expel most of them. Except unlike the Arabs, allow the Palestinians to take their mobile assets/monies with them and pay a stipend to help restart life. Start this as a voluntarily offer, then set a cap of the number of Palestinians that can live in each region. Then tell the Arab countries that the rest are going to be pushed out by X year.

Not nice but certainly better than any of the other ethnic cleansing/population moves of the 20th Century.

 

[suffolkowner]

The solution in Gaza and WB is to do what the Arabs did to the Jews from 1948 to 1971, which is to expel most of them. Except unlike the Arabs, allow the Palestinians to take their mobile assets/monies with them and pay a stipend to help restart life. Start this as a voluntarily offer, then set a cap of the number of Palestinians that can live in each region. Then tell the Arab countries that the rest are going to be pushed out by X year.

Not nice but certainly better than any of the other ethnic cleansing/population moves of the 20th Century.

Yeah but thats not much of a solution because
1. its almost unfeasible and
2. it seems like it would precipitate a response worse than the current ongoing situation and
3. it doesnt pass the moral and ethical tests of modern western nations. Would there be support for that in Israel? I doubt it. Would there be support in the rest of the western world? Even more doubt

Admittedly Azerbaijan managed to engage in some ethnic cleansing in NK recently to very little fanfare but I dont think its replicable

 

[YZT580]

The solution in Gaza and WB is to do what the Arabs did to the Jews from 1948 to 1971, which is to expel most of them. Except unlike the Arabs, allow the Palestinians to take their mobile assets/monies with them and pay a stipend to help restart life. Start this as a voluntarily offer, then set a cap of the number of Palestinians that can live in each region. Then tell the Arab countries that the rest are going to be pushed out by X year.

Not nice but certainly better than any of the other ethnic cleansing/population moves of the 20th Century.

and they go where? There isn't a nation in the area that wants several million displaced persons and that is an insurmountable problem. There has never been a nation of Palestine so they have no ancestral entitlement to any of the land. They aren't even of one tribe ethnically but are a mix of all the groupings that occupied the area after the breakdown of the Roman empire. They were primarily nomadic and subsistent farmers, with tribal loyalties that finally answered to the Ottoman Empire. As muslims, they responded to direction from Egypt and the Transjordan to get out of dodge while the Arabic armies exterminated the Jews in '49. That didn't happen. But it was never their country that they left; simply their homes. Unlike the Jews, indeed unlike our own indigenous folks their only claim to the land of Israel is an old title document for their family farm. Their best opportunity for a homeland as stated above was in 2005 and they rejected it. They have spent the last 70 years teaching their children to hate. They have conditioned the world to believe that they have an ancestral entitlement that doesn't exist and they have played the martyred, persecuted people group for so long that they have come to firmly believe it. I don't like the current Jewish leadership but they are correct in their notion that it isn't possible to have two nations co-existing unless those two nations support one another. But how do you stop hate? Get the UN out of there and dismantle their education system and start now with teaching the truth about the Jewish people and maybe in 50 years you will have created an atmosphere where the two groups aren't at each others throats.

 

[daftandbarmy]

They have spent the last 70 years teaching their children to hate. They have conditioned the world to believe that they have an ancestral entitlement that doesn't exist and they have played the martyred, persecuted people group for so long that they have come to firmly believe it.

Oh, for a second there I thought you were referring to Ireland, the Former Yugoslavia or any one of a thousand other similar places in the world these days

 

[YZT580]

Oh, for a second there I thought you were referring to Ireland, the Former Yugoslavia or any one of a thousand other similar places in the world these days

might have, could have. And some have actually left those attitudes behind and rejoined the human race.

 

[Quirky]

Stuffing 2.2m+ people, which is likely grow, into an area roughly the size of Toronto is not sustainable. When you consider the overall size and relatively sparse density of the Middle East, a palestinian state in the Gaza Strip is inhumane. I cannot envision a scenario where gaza becomes a peaceful and prosperous country coexisting with Israel with the current borders.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

and they go where? There isn't a nation in the area that wants several million displaced persons and that is an insurmountable problem. There has never been a nation of Palestine so they have no ancestral entitlement to any of the land. They aren't even of one tribe ethnically but are a mix of all the groupings that occupied the area after the breakdown of the Roman empire. They were primarily nomadic and subsistent farmers, with tribal loyalties that finally answered to the Ottoman Empire. As muslims, they responded to direction from Egypt and the Transjordan to get out of dodge while the Arabic armies exterminated the Jews in '49. That didn't happen. But it was never their country that they left; simply their homes. Unlike the Jews, indeed unlike our own indigenous folks their only claim to the land of Israel is an old title document for their family farm. Their best opportunity for a homeland as stated above was in 2005 and they rejected it. They have spent the last 70 years teaching their children to hate. They have conditioned the world to believe that they have an ancestral entitlement that doesn't exist and they have played the martyred, persecuted people group for so long that they have come to firmly believe it. I don't like the current Jewish leadership but they are correct in their notion that it isn't possible to have two nations co-existing unless those two nations support one another. But how do you stop hate? Get the UN out of there and dismantle their education system and start now with teaching the truth about the Jewish people and maybe in 50 years you will have created an atmosphere where the two groups aren't at each others throats.

March them over the border into Syria.