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Guns and Mortars

BK C is the mortar bty an interm solution, I thought we were maintaining a residual skill set from the Infantry and providing a weapons system to the Bty without M109. A further question, does the second M109 Bty in 1 Horse have a weapons system, if so where did you get them?
 
I have to jump in on this one, having been a Mortar Pl Comd and having done the Adv Mor Crse.

Firstly, I'd just like to say that MFCs knew their stuff. These guys were just as comfortable calling in a Regimental Fire Mission as they were a Mor Gp fire mission. Also, most (if not all) were trained FACs too (at least the ones I worked with). The big difference with FOO parties was that the former had more people, more kit and tended to be better at the big fire plans. Anyway I just thought I'd throw that out there so people weren't thinking that MFCs did fire missions "off the seat of their pants".

Secondly, and I think some of you gunners out there might agree, I think taking the mors away from the infantry was an incredibly bad idea. The mor, by virtue of its range, size and handling, is purely an intimate support infantry weapon. While it is true that the gunners can and do use it very well, I feel there are some doctrinal and cultural reasons why giving them the mors was a bad idea. Firstly, artillery is often used en masse in support of formation manoeuvre. By this I mean arty is used to being grouped on the main effort and not penny-packeted out to the units in the Bde. Mors on the other hand are a 'hip-pocket' weapon designed to be a unit CO's personal fire support. I think these very different and often diverging roles could cause problems for the gunners.

Anyway, I have a lot of concerns but I'll stop there before the violins kick in.

MG
 
One aspect of the removal of the 81 mm mortar from the Infantry was the effect this had on the Reserves. The following is a short piece I penned after seeing the Army instruction on standing down the mortar platoons (it's been updated to a current point of view). At the time I was the Adjutant for the Princess Louise Fusiliers, which had long maintained a successful mortar program. I started with the PLF as a mortarman, and went on to command 2 RCR Mortar Platoon and to sever at the Infantry School as the Subject Matter Expert Mortars. I agree with Mortar Guy, the mortars had a lighter-weight command and control system that gave a greater responsiveness to the battalion while the Artillery indirect fore control system is a little more ponderous in application at that level. Not wrong, just different


EULOGY FOR A MILITIA SUCCESS STORY

Recent developments in force structure for the Infantry have seen the demise of the medium (81 mm) mortar as an Infantry weapon system. This decision had not, however, been predicated by a tactical analysis which determined that the 81 mm mortar had outlived its usefulness, but had been brought to fruition by infantry manning shortfalls and the interim solution of Artillery crewed mortar platoons on operational deployments. With the additional perceived advantage that this also leveled the pers tempo between these corps, the notion that mortars could disappear from the infantry was thus born.

Mortars, long the poor cousin of the battalion support weapons' platoons, lacking Recce's snake-eating aura, TOW's high-tech systems and reach-out-and-touch-someone approach, and the Pioneers' esprit for construction and high-explosive destruction, have seldom been appreciated for the unique integral capability they provide to the battalion.. (It should also be mentioned that those bearded souls are now also a historical footnote.)  The medium mortar has supported our infantry organizations since the First World War and evolved into integral battalion elements after the Second. They have long been the sole dedicated indirect fire support resource under the Commanding Officer and gave him the capability to reach over the next hill wherever a requirement for fire could be observed, or predicted.

The training of mortar detachment members has always been a relatively easy task. Training time for the basic weapon course is much less than for the other support platoon specialties, in some cases half or less. Training the Advanced Mortarman is a somewhat different problem, and many who have completed, or attempted, the Advanced Mortar Course will readily proclaim it was one of the more difficult courses in the Infantry's inventory. Yet, it has never been a limitation in training and maintaining the requisite NCOs and officers to staff our mortar platoons, when those platoons were granted any level of manning priority to begin with.

Significantly, the infantry mortar platoon also represented the sole long-standing success story for support weapon platoons in Reserve infantry units. The Militia has not had an Anti-Armour Platoon since the retirement of the 106 mm Recoilless Rifle. TOW weapon systems being too expensive and too few for a Reserve allocation. Various attempts to create Reserve Recce or Pioneer platoons have foundered on the shoals of too-limited Class â Å“Aâ ? training time to maintain skills and the cost and limited availability of requisite equipment and Regular Force expertise in support.

The Reserves maintained the 81 mm mortar for decades. In Land Force Atlantic Area these have been held and manned by the Princess Louise Fusiliers (PLF) with an annual live fire capability for over 25 years without additional funding. Throughout this period, the unit has also had Reserve Advanced Mortarmen trained on the Regular Force Courses at CTC, always having at least one, and up to five PLF-badged advanced mortarmen in the unit. The training of basic mortarmen was successfully conducted throughout this period both on the Armoury floor within Class â Å“Aâ ? timeframes as well as at the various iterations of the Area Training Centre.

The training requirements and technology to maintain a mortar program are well within the fiscal and training capabilities of a Reserve unit. With the application of some degree of priority to supporting the mortar platoon and the dedication of funding Advanced Course training for an officer or NCO every 2-3 years to maintain unit staff, success is very achievable without detracting from other unit roles and tasks.

But Army planners ignored this Reserve capability, and, notably, the success of the Princess Louise Fusiliers with mortars. Yet, each operational rotation still draws augmentation from the Reserves to support the deployed task forces. In a similar vein, Reserve infantry mortar detachments, or ideally, groups, could have been provided to a Regular Force battalion and its FSCC.

Instead, Infantry mortars will fade quietly in the night as soldiers move to fill rifle company shortfalls and the Artillery fill the operational requirements for mortar platoons. When the dust has settled and the Canadian Army revisits its battalion organizations in Canada, few will notice that the Battalions now have no integral indirect fire support. One of the inevitable fallouts of this decision will be the loss of support to infantry mortar programs and any justification to create or maintain 81 mm mortars in Reserve Infantry units.

There may be good reasons at this time to shift manning priorities in the Regular Force battalions. A formal and open doctrinal analysis may even raise cause to examine the current capability of the 81 mm mortar systems. But there is little evidence at this time that they have achieved obsolescence and their loss from the infantry may be a difficult gap to fill in a few years if we find ourselves in error. Even if the Regular Force battalions stand down their mortar platoon in the near term, is there a good argument for completely divesting the Infantry Corps of this capability when it is transferable to and maintainable by the Reserves.

The mortars of the Princess Louise Fusiliers were proof that Reserve mortar programs, alone among the Infantry support weapons systems, can be a long-term success. Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that reinforcement of success was a credible tactical principle.

 
Thanks Mike,

As a former PLF mortarman that made for a good read, and brought back a lot of great memories.
 
Michael,

Excellent points ref the reserve Mors. I was with the Seaforths shortly after they lost their 10/90 Mor role and there were still a number of mor trained pers in the unit. I am a very strong believer that the Militia can accomplish almost anything we give them the resources to do.

As for sending the mors to the arty, this just reeks of cap-badge-ism to me. We were sold down the river by some in our own Corps and were out-manoeuvred by some in other corps who wanted a bigger piece of the action. Of course, by action I mean overseas tours. Almost everybody I talk to realizes that transferring the mors from the infantry to the arty diminished the capabilities of both corps and of the army as a whole. Likewise, disbanding the Pioneer Pls and the Aslt Tps removed the equivalent of 4 sqns worth of engineer-ish troops from the army at a time when our Engrs are woefully overtasked and undermanned. This is difficult for me to understand as mors represented a very good chunk of the CO's firepower and his only source of long range smoke and illum. Similarly, the loss of Pnrs represents a big step back in terms of mobility and counter-mobility capabilities within the Bn. I am just a simple Capt so I cannot understand why we are so obviously weakening our Army and diminishing our ability to do anything other than guard our allies' hospitals. To me, it would be better to drop down to 8 full strength infantry battalions rather than 9 weak ones.

I was seriously hoping that the 5,000 man expansion to the CF would reverse these blatantly obvious examples of robbing peter to pay paul but of course that would have been an admission of error on someone's part.

MG
 
There has been some lively debate over the last twenty four hours concerning the mortars' current place of residence within an Artillery regiment.

Allow me to weigh in with some points from an artillery perspective aimed at stimulating more discussion and perhaps clearing up some misconceptions that may, or may not exist.

Firstly, while I cannot profess with any degree of accuracy to speak for the entire Royal Regiment of Canadian Artillery, I can say with some confidence that the majority of the artillery officers whith whom I have spoken did not want the mortar task.  I have to agree with some of those who have responded, that moving the mortar capability to the artillery was not a good idea...doctrinally.  It is important to note, however, that this decision was not reached...doctrinally... but rather was driven by fiscal demands, in particular the need to find PY to fill the emerging ISTAR positions that the Army has decided to create.  I do have to admit, having seen it with my own eyes, there are those with bigger pay checks than I who would like to see the total artilleryization of the mortars.  Myself and other artillery junior officers with whom I am acquainted, prefer to keep the mortars more akin to the mortar platoon that always was.

The mortar platoon is quite rightly the only guaranteed indirect fire that a Battalion/Battle Group/Task Force Commander has.  I do have to disagree with Mike O'Leary when he says "Recent developments in force structure for the Infantry have seen the demise of the medium (81 mm) mortar as an Infantry weapon system".  The only change in force structure is brought about by a different cap badge dropping bombs down a barrel. That mortar platoon, as far as I know, is still an integral part of the Battalion TOE when called upon for operations.  As Mike is surely aware, the CLFCSC TOE for Infantry Battalions includes a Mortar Platoon.  I feel it is imperative to note that the capability has been transferred, but the actual tubes themselves are still there.  That being said, one cannot underestimate the value of team cohesion and esprit de corps that is forged between a Mortar Platoon that is part of the very same unit vice one who is two provinces east.  This, takes me back to my first point that many artillery officers never wanted the mortars in the first place.

I have to echo Mortar Guy wrt MFCs.  My first real opportunity to work with MFCs came during Op APOLLO and I had the privilege to work alongside some of 3 PPCLI's ex-MFCs who had been relocated to the 60mm mortar.  I was very impressed by their technical knowledge and after enquiring as to what training they had undergone, I was even more impressed by what they had learned. MFCs were a valuable asset to the BC in supporting the Comd's plan, and their loss is, in my mind, a far greater tragedy than moving mortars between cap badges.

To end with a glimmer of hope, I will attempt to reassure my infateer bretheren by stating there is a small majority of artillery officers who feel the place of the mortars is in an infantry battalion.  Perhaps with future developments we will see that come to fruition, in the interim however, we will continue to serve the mortars with the same professionalism we have served the guns for over one hundred and thirty years.  It is my firm belief that eventually the trend will come full circle and mortars will return to their infantry homes.
 
All the infantry MFCs that I ever worked with ( AB Regt, VP, RCR, Van Doo ) all had their proverbial "poop in a group" as it were. They were squared away both at the OP and at the FSCC.

Further,we've all had those days where the adjustment for that big Fire Plan turned into the antics of the infamous "Spiral Ranger"!!

( Just imparting some historical spin on a rather sensitive issue here.)

Ubique
 
Just been reading through this thread, I'm a Brit Mortarman and I was firstly shocked you had taken Mortars from the Infantry and I think a lot of my questions have already been answered after reading this. 

Horsegunner353 I fully agree with you, it is there for us grunts as the only guaranteed support, unless you attach Mor Btys to Inf Bn Operationally on a permanant basis, and I also think if our Army was to take it away from us there would be hell to pay. 

Cross training from a Rifle company sect comd to Mortars is one of the best moves I ever made, good job, excellant bunch of blokes (drunken thugs) and it really opened my eyes to the bigger picture, which you don't really see first hand when your crawling around in the dirt.  I took to it so well after 2 years I ended up as the platoon 2IC as a Sgt and then again a couple of years later as a CSgt. 

Did you know 40 Cdo RM fired more 81mm on the Al Faw peninsula in Gulf War 2 than the whole of 3 Cdo Bde did in the Falklands Campaign, we can't give away things like that, it's far to valuable to the Battle Group Comd.

I'm leaving the Army next year (too old - at 40) so if you guys need an experienced Mortar bloke - with quals to plan and conduct live firing - give me a shout.
 
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