"Gun Cult in the US and How to Change It" split from Las Vegas Massacre

[Infanteer]

On the other hand (back to the first one I guess, since I only have two), it has interesting societal aspects not necessarily touched on in the gun control thread. Perhaps a split to a thread that would be called "Gun Cult in the US and How to Change It".

To give you two examples:

I had a neighbour in the US who wanted to go to a movie one night.  However, he opted out.  Why?  Because the theatre chain prohibited firearms in their building.  He felt he needed to arm himself to go watch a movie in a mall theatre.

I have a relative (American) who carries a pistol in her purse.  She only needed to show her driver licence to do so.  She has no training in how to use the thing and is not an avid shooter.  She carries it because "Americans need to defend themselves."  I really believe, were she to use it, she'd be more a menace to herself/bystanders than anyone else as it is a small, difficult to handle pistol.

I've never really met anyone in Canada who instinctively needs to be armed in public.  This is the "gun culture" that we often talk about.

 

[mariomike]

I've never really met anyone in Canada who instinctively needs to be armed in public.  This is the "gun culture" that we often talk about.

I don't know about the rest of Canada, but even Toronto police officers are not authorized* to carry guns off-duty.

* Except in special circumstances.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

It varies between police forces and which act they fall under. A lot of rural officers carry weapons in the trunk as they get called at any time. ATC for personal defense used to be far more common and every bank was required to have a gun at the branch. The laws still exists, but the CFO's make it almost impossible to get one. Considering the US experience of CCW holders having an average of 1% indictment rate, up here with our PAL system and a training requirement, we would have even less issues. Currently most self defense cases in Canada involves bad guys shooting other bad guys, but the courts are showing that they recognize that deadly force is still warranted when your life is threatened. 

 

[Lumber]

As long as we're sharing anecdotes. My best friend met some Texans on his honeymoon. Real nice folks. Young, republican, but progressive. They came up to Ontario for a visit last summer, and of course, all our Canadian friends wanted to talk to them about was politics and Trump and gun control . I tried to stay out of it because I wanted them to enjoy their time and not cause any awkward feeling between them on us, however, I did ask him one question. I asked:

"So you own, what was it 27 guns, right?"
"Something like that, yea."
"And when you walk and drive around Houston, you know that just about everyone around you has a gun on them or in their vehicle, right."
"Not everyone, but I'd say most of them, yea."
"So how does it feel, as you're touring around Canada with (my best friend), that no one around you, not one of these people, has a gun, either on them, or in their cars?"
"It's totally f***ing weird."

 

[mariomike]

ATC for personal defense used to be far more common and every bank was required to have a gun at the branch.

That came to an end in Toronto in the 1950's when a bank manager accidently killed a bank employee with a ricochet aimed at a robber.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I sense a red herring inbound.... yes, I drink alcohol. But if I learned that someone took beer and killed 58 people and wounded 500 with it at a concert than I'd probably reconsider.

Drinking alcohol is a personal choice that can't harm other people (directly). Being shot by a 65 year old man sporting the firepower of an infantry platoon at a country concert is not a personal choice. Heck, being shot by a toddler who's, assumedly idiotic parents, allowed to have access to a gun is not a personal choice.

Thanks for your candor my friend.
I've been shooting for 33 years and drinking for 20. I've never behaved dangerously while shooting, after shooting or with a gun in my hand but I've done some extremely stupid things while drinking and almost got people hurt.

I couldn't begin to guess how many assaults, rapes, murders, accidents, accidental deaths and suicides happen where alcohol is a factor.

I would guess there is a bigger chance of you the average gun owner doing something dumb dangerous or deadly while drinking than with a gun in their hand (without alcohol present).

As infanteer points out its not my choice to get hit  by a drunk driver. None of us here have went on a shooting spree, how many of us endangered lives by having a few too many? 

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I believe it ended later out here.

 

[Jarnhamar]

That came to an end in Toronto in the 1950's when a bank manager accidently killed a bank employee with a ricochet aimed at a robber.

A police officers bullet likewise killed a hostage during the siege/mass shooting in Australia in 2014.

 

[mariomike]

A police officers bullet likewise killed a hostage during the siege/mass shooting in Australia in 2014.

The situation you describe sounds like a SWAT type operation with regrettable "collateral damage".

My reply was to, "every bank was required to have a gun at the branch."

There was no hostage, police negotiations or siege. The employee was accidentally killed by a civilian bank manager.

That is when ( late 1950's ) guns were removed from bank branches in Toronto.

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

Owning/shooting firearms is a personal choice that can't harm other people (directly).  Being run over by a 65 year old man who is driving while intoxicated is not a personal choice.

Only pointing out the logic here.

Agree. I would also support having breathalyzers on all cars to avoid such things (if it were to ever be feasible) for the same reasons. The reality is that as a society we "should" be attempting to do what is in the social interest. As there is no real need for private citizens to own semi-automatic weapons and they are linked to mass shootings than it seems logical that we would ban these weapons in the public interest, in the same way we ban drunk driving.

I don't believe banning guns is a 100% solution. I also don't believe mental health education is a 100% solution. I do believe that gun control and mental health are part of an overall solution to reducing mass shootings.

 

[mariomike]

I would also support having breathalyzers on all cars to avoid such things (if it were to ever be feasible) for the same reasons.

It will never be perfect, but progress in safety is being made. At least as far as traffic fatalities are concerned.

In the US, the 32,479 traffic fatalities in 2011 were the lowest in 62 years (1949).
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2011-12-08/u-s-highway-deaths-decline-2-9-falling-for-fifth-year-1-

 

[FSTO]

When I was going to high school in rural SW Manitoba during the late 70's, I would hazard to guess that of all the pickups in the student parking lot 75% would have at least a .22 behind the seat if not on the gun rack in the back window. During hunting season shot-guns and high powered rifles would also be included in the armoury.

We had our bullying issues and screwed up kids but there was never even a thought that someone would go get the gun out of the truck and start shooting up the school. Different time for sure.

 

[mariomike]

When I was going to high school in rural SW Manitoba during the late 70's, I would hazard to guess that of all the pickups in the student parking lot 75% would have at least a .22 behind the seat if not on the gun rack in the back window.

Couldn't resist. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjYAEtO-Ohk
01:45

 

[GAP]

When I was going to high school in rural SW Manitoba during the late 70's, I would hazard to guess that of all the pickups in the student parking lot 75% would have at least a .22 behind the seat if not on the gun rack in the back window. During hunting season shot-guns and high powered rifles would also be included in the armoury.

We had our bullying issues and screwed up kids but there was never even a thought that someone would go get the gun out of the truck and start shooting up the school. Different time for sure.

I was so proud of my custom gun stock in the back window...... :nod:

 

[Jarnhamar]

Agree. I would also support having breathalyzers on all cars to avoid such things (if it were to ever be feasible) for the same reasons.

Thats such a wicked idea. Breathalyzers in all cars. I'd support that 100%.

But what about speed limiters?  Do you need a car that goes 120kph when our highest speed limit is what, 110kph?

As there is no real need for private citizens to own semi-automatic weapons and they are linked to mass shootings

The second last mass shooting in Canada was done with a crossbow. 3 dead.

The third last mass shooting in Canada was one with a shotgun. 4 dead 7 injured.

June 17th 2017 police in Northern Quebec shot a 19 year old who killed 3 people with a knife.



Given the number of mass shootings in Canada where semi automatics were used in the last 10 years is it really a viable solution to ban semi auto rifles? Is it going to significantly impact the number of mass murders in Canada? Or lower the potential of dead and injured? 

Should we stop at semi auto rifles or maybe add pistols to the list, or high capacity shotguns? Bolt action rifles with detachable magazines?

Do first Nations who use rifles for sustinent hunting get special exemptions or would we send the RCMP on to reserves and up north to confiscate them?


(sorry just realized I'm drifting into Canadian gun control debate but I guess the question about FN would jive down there too)

 

[Fishbone Jones]

More people are killed with guns than knives in the US.

https://www.snopes.com/four-times-more-stabbed-than-rifles-any-kind/

Given the bad exposure Snopes has rec'd showing left leaning bias and adulteration of facts to fit their narrative, I'd be inclined to depend on them even less than Wikipedia for facts. Not doubting your claim, just saying Snopes doesn't cut it as a dependable source any more.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Given the bad exposure Snopes has rec'd showing left leaning bias and adulteration of facts to fit their narrative, I'd be inclined to depend on them even less than Wikipedia for facts. Not doubting your claim, just saying Snopes doesn't cut it as a dependable source any more.

I checked with snopes if they're left wing biased and they said that accusation is false.

Also an interesting article by Forbes
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kalevleetaru/2016/12/22/the-daily-mail-snopes-story-and-fact-checking-the-fact-checkers/

Glad you're back RC but hurt you didn't comment  on my newest acquisition  ;D

 

[mariomike]

https://www.snopes.com/four-times-more-stabbed-than-rifles-any-kind/

"On 16 October 2017, Breitbart.com posted a story..."

I don't read Breitbart.com, but for anyone interested,

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2016/04/28/breitbartcom-becoming-media-arm-alt-right
"Is Breitbart.com Becoming the Media Arm of the 'Alt-Right'?"

What is the "Alt-right"?
https://www.google.ca/search?q=%22alt-right%22+breitbart&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&dcr=0&ei=eZMDWp2oMoKR8QeC1JQI&gws_rd=ssl

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Breathalyzer in every car. No semi auto firearms. (I assume you also mean .22 cal rimfire.) What else would you prohibit the masses from having because you don't like the reality of a situation?

So, basically, if you don't like it, it needs to be banned?

Like I said earlier, you can't legislate behaviour.

From your research:
"Table 12 also shows that more people were killed via the use of “hands, fists, feet, etc.,” than were killed by rifles of any kind. In fact, the tally shows that the death numbers were not even close. While approximately 374 people were shot and killed with rifles, roughly 656 people were beaten to death with “hands, fists, feet, etc.” "

Last I looked, assault causing death was against the law and 656 seems like an excessive number at least compared to those of rifles.

After cutting off everyone's hands and feet, we'll have to figure how far back to cut the stumps so they can't be used to club or poke.  ;D j/k

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I checked with snopes if they're left wing biased and they said that accusation is false.

Also an interesting article by Forbes
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kalevleetaru/2016/12/22/the-daily-mail-snopes-story-and-fact-checking-the-fact-checkers/

Glad you're back RC but hurt you didn't comment  on my newest acquisition  ;D

Cheers Jarn. Not really back and don't spend any time here when I am. Sometime something catches my eye. Abolishinists and prohibitionists are like blood in the water.  :rofl:

I'll check out your new toy before I go.