Gentlemen

[MCpl Wesite]

Stupid question time.

I've always heard that officers are considered gentlemen/ladies and NCM's are the men and women.

Is there a reference/pub anywhere that actually says this?

Cheers.

 

[George Wallace]

Stupid question time.

I've always heard that officers are considered gentlemen/ladies and NCM's are the men and women.

Is there a reference/pub anywhere that actually says this?

Cheers.

You will likely find the correct references outside the military, in old books on Etiquette.

Michael O'Leary's site, regimentalrogue.com, has many historical references. 

 

[RocketRichard]

This may help:

Dress policy for some Messes:

Dress Regulations for Junior Rank's Mess



The following dress regulations shall apply to all personnel (members and guests) when they are present in the Junior Rank's Mess;
Formal;
Male - Mess Kit, Uniform (2B), dark solid evening coloured suit; and
Female - Mess Kit, Uniform (2B), formal evening attire.
Regular;
Male - sport jacket, dress shirt with tie or open neck, turtle neck, dress pants; and
Female - dress, skirt or slacks with blouse.

Dress Codes Policy

Unless otherwise posted for specific functions, the minimum order of dress in the Army Officers Mess is # 5.

Footwear:

Sneakers and sports sandals are not appropriate at any time in the Army Officers Mess unless specified as part of a theme or sport attire.

Note:

The following items are not permitted unless indicated on the entertainment calendar or previously authorized: Sleeveless shirts (muscle shirts), and clothing not in good repair or taste.  Jeans are not permitted unless indicated on the entertainment calendar, or as part of the United Way campaign (United Way button must be worn).  Dress shirts must be tucked in.



Dress Codes

#1

Gentlemen:
Mess Kit or Black Tie
Ladies:
Mess Kit or Evening Gown

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

Stupid question time.

I've always heard that officers are considered gentlemen/ladies and NCM's are the men and women.

Is there a reference/pub anywhere that actually says this?

Cheers.

The plural of "Sir' is "Gentlemen" and the plural of Ma'am is "ladies". By definition, any group of more than 1 male or female officer would then be properly addressed as "ladies and gentlemen" from a strictly grammatical perspective.

The view of the officer as being a "lady/gentleman" comes from the old military establishment where the vast majority of the officer class was drawn from the new/old nobility. the tradition has carried on largely in name only IMHO....

 

[Old Sweat]

The plural of "Sir' is "Gentlemen" and the plural of Ma'am is "ladies". By definition, any group of more than 1 male or female officer would then be properly addressed as "ladies and gentlemen" from a strictly grammatical perspective.

The view of the officer as being a "lady/gentleman" comes from the old military establishment where the vast majority of the officer class was drawn from the new/old nobility. the tradition has carried on largely in name only IMHO....

When I was on officer training in 1960 we were told "an officer and a gentleman" was an American term and, while Canadian officers were not defined as gentlemen [and ladies,] we were to act as if we were. For whatever it is worth, we had one member of our course who could be described as coming from the gentlemanly class. He was an early failure.

 

[dimsum]

When I was on officer training in 1960 we were told "an officer and a gentleman" was an American term and, while Canadian officers were not defined as gentlemen [and ladies,] we were to act as if we were. For whatever it is worth, we had one member of our course who could be described as coming from the gentlemanly class. He was an early failure.

Was he expecting a batman (and not Bruce Wayne)?

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

But Old Sweat, that's because in the US, the officers were NOT selected from the ranks of the gentlemen.  :nod:

You also have to remember that in the US they also address their officers as "Sir", even though they were never part of the gentry, even the female officers (they do not seem to be capable of addressing women officers as "M'am".

As for us in Canada, we follow (of course) the British model, so gentlemen and ladies are plural for Sir and M'am. It is certainly the only way I have ever seen a group of officers addressed as: At an O Group or mostly officers' briefing, or in my case on the bridge of a ship or in the wardroom, we have always used "Ladies and Gentlemen" as there collective address to the group (As in the toast "Ladies and Gentlemen, The Queen!")

 

[Old Sweat]

Was he expecting a batman (and not Bruce Wayne)?

Not far off. When he arrived at Douglas Station, the CPR stop for Shilo, he ordered one of the NCO instructors to load his bags on the truck. The course officer made it clear to him that if he wanted to see his personal effects again, he better bestir himself and lug the bags to the vehicle himself.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

But Old Sweat, that's because in the US, the officers were NOT selected from the ranks of the gentlemen.  :nod:

You also have to remember that in the US they also address their officers as "Sir", even though they were never part of the gentry, even the female officers (they do not seem to be capable of addressing women officers as "M'am".

As for us in Canada, we follow (of course) the British model, so gentlemen and ladies are plural for Sir and M'am. It is certainly the only way I have ever seen a group of officers addressed as: At an O Group or mostly officers' briefing, or in my case on the bridge of a ship or in the wardroom, we have always used "Ladies and Gentlemen" as there collective address to the group (As in the toast "Ladies and Gentlemen, The Queen!")

We had a female BC that we called Sir :nod:

 

[Old Sweat]

But Old Sweat, that's because in the US, the officers were NOT selected from the ranks of the gentlemen.  :nod:

You also have to remember that in the US they also address their officers as "Sir", even though they were never part of the gentry, even the female officers (they do not seem to be capable of addressing women officers as "M'am".

As for us in Canada, we follow (of course) the British model, so gentlemen and ladies are plural for Sir and M'am. It is certainly the only way I have ever seen a group of officers addressed as: At an O Group or mostly officers' briefing, or in my case on the bridge of a ship or in the wardroom, we have always used "Ladies and Gentlemen" as there collective address to the group (As in the toast "Ladies and Gentlemen, The Queen!")

Indeed, but that was pretty well obsolete in the Canadian Army by the end of the Second World War, much to the chagrin of the traditionalists. During that war about half the officers came from the ranks. Mind you, in the sixties we used to get what we called "couth lectures" taken verbatim from British Army material on manners for the lower classes when elevated to gentlemen status. Frankly I am proud that I grew up on a farm and earned a commission on merit.

 

[dimsum]

Indeed, but that was pretty well obsolete in the Canadian Army by the end of the Second World War, much to the chagrin of the traditionalists. During that war about half the officers came from the ranks. Mind you, in the sixties we used to get what we called "couth lectures" taken verbatim from British Army material on manners for the lower classes when elevated to gentlemen status. Frankly I am proud that I grew up on a farm and earned a commission on merit.

Wait - was one of those "couch lectures" something about "if you have a drink at lunch, drink gin as people can't smell it on your breath"?  I know I read it somewhere and couldn't stop laughing.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Wait - was one of those "couch lectures" something about "if you have a drink at lunch, drink gin as people can't smell it on your breath"?  I know I read it somewhere and couldn't stop laughing.

Vodka... it's vodka they can't smell on your breath after lunch.

 

[Blackadder1916]

The plural of "Sir' is "Gentlemen" and the plural of Ma'am is "ladies". By definition, any group of more than 1 male or female officer would then be properly addressed as "ladies and gentlemen" from a strictly grammatical perspective.

The view of the officer as being a "lady/gentleman" comes from the old military establishment where the vast majority of the officer class was drawn from the new/old nobility. the tradition has carried on largely in name only IMHO....

" . . . he became an officer and a gentleman, which is an enviable thing . . ."  from  "Only A Subaltern"  by Rudyard Kipling

Now, "from a strictly grammatical perspective", the plural of "sir" is "sirs" and "ma'am" (a contraction of "madam") is madams (or mesdames if you're real poncy).  Since the use of sir and ma'am in a military setting denotes an inferior to a superior relationship, it does not automatically follow that use of the combined expression "ladies and gentlemen" (or use of the terms singlely) is directed at groups consisting of those normally entitled to the honorific of sir/ma'am.  It could just as easily be applied to a group of officers; or a group of officers and NCMs; or a group of officers, NCMs and civilians regardless of the rank relationship of the speaker.  It shouldn't be applied to a group that includes regimental mascots, whatever the relationship (however intimate or platonic) individuals in that group have with the mascot.

At one time (I don't know when the use ceased) those attending RMC (just like their Sandhurst counterparts) were ranked and titled as "Gentleman Cadets".

On an historic note, the better class of "Madams" provided entertainment venues for the often less refined class of "Gentlemen".

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Not far off. When he arrived at Douglas Station, the CPR stop for Shilo, he ordered one of the NCO instructors to load his bags on the truck. The course officer made it clear to him that if he wanted to see his personal effects again, he better bestir himself and lug the bags to the vehicle himself.

Oh how I love little stories like this.  ;D

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

" . . . he became an officer and a gentleman, which is an enviable thing . . ."  from  "Only A Subaltern"  by Rudyard Kipling

Now, "from a strictly grammatical perspective", the plural of "sir" is "sirs" and "ma'am" (a contraction of "madam") is madams (or mesdames if you're real poncy).  Since the use of sir and ma'am in a military setting denotes an inferior to a superior relationship, it does not automatically follow that use of the combined expression "ladies and gentlemen" (or use of the terms singlely) is directed at groups consisting of those normally entitled to the honorific of sir/ma'am.  It could just as easily be applied to a group of officers; or a group of officers and NCMs; or a group of officers, NCMs and civilians regardless of the rank relationship of the speaker.  It shouldn't be applied to a group that includes regimental mascots, whatever the relationship (however intimate or platonic) individuals in that group have with the mascot.

At one time (I don't know when the use ceased) those attending RMC (just like their Sandhurst counterparts) were ranked and titled as "Gentleman Cadets".

On an historic note, the better class of "Madams" provided entertainment venues for the often less refined class of "Gentlemen".

I'll agree to disagree. Most dictionaries do include "sirs" as an official english word, it is almost always predicated with something like, 'Gentlemen is the proper plural form of sir but sirs is acceptable as well" sort of how "aint" is in the dictionary.

 

[Good2Golf]

Oh how I love little stories like this.  ;D

I love a witty NCM.  Years back, I was a young subbie heading off to an airshow as a co-pilot in the #2 aircraft.  As I was dutifully following my aircraft captain through Flight Operations, I overheard the Flight Commander to his flight engineer, "MCpl XXX, my luggage is by the door at Servicing..."  Fast forward to our putting the aircraft to bed at destination.  Same Flight Commander to same MCpl, "MCpl XXX, where is my luggage?"  MCpl XXX to Flight Commander, with an incredibly well-played aire of innocence, "Sir, I believe you noted it was by the door to Servicing..."

That night the "gentleman" was rightly had out by the soldier.  Well done, MCpl!!!  :nod:

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Oh that is magical. 

 

[Good2Golf]

Oh that is magical. 

MCpl XXX also once told the MND [Collinette] to find another aircraft, this one [Huey] wasn't for him.

I was about 300m away at the time, in an idling Huey, but the MCpl's head tilting, pointing elsewhere and the final "two-hand pshaww, I'm out of here" motion was pretty unmistakable...when he got back to the chopper and hooked up to the intercom, he quietly suggested, "We should go now!"  ;D

 

[CountDC]

The MCpl deserves it.

 

[Rifleman62]

When you commission from the ranks you cease to be a man. :

How about every Army CWO being addressed as RSM, my particular fav.