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G&M: CBC's military obsession just feels creepy

St. Micheal's Medical Team said:
In the G&M, at the bottom of the article is an area to leave comments...

please do.

There was one, yesterday; I left a comment - not overly rude, but I did suggest that Doyle et al were "pretentious latte sippers" who sat in Yorkville "gossipping like fishwives about second rate Canadian TV programmes."  My comment was not posted and, today, the invitation to comment is gone.

I suspect the Good Grey Globe was bombarded with complaints and is trying to distance itself from the whole thing.
 
... pretentious latte sippers ... gossipping like fishwives about second rate Canadian TV programmes....

:rofl:

Given those little snippets...

Oh... how I would have liked to see the entire missive...

 
cplcaldwell said:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20061214.wmansbridge14/CommentStory/Entertainment/home

This is the link to comment on the Mansbridge article.  I think more would prefer to comment on the Doyle article.
 
All,

I'm new here and I've been trying to be the 'grey man' and keep a low profile, but this pi@@ed me off. I wrote this letter to the G&M, but I know they'll never publish it online.

Just FYI:

With respect, John Doyle needs to sit in his "TV cranny" and shut the hell up. He’s so obviously uninformed, so gleefully free of the burden of unnecessary details like ‘facts’ or ‘perspective’, that his editors should limit his published opinions to whatever happened on last night’s America’s Top Model.

Mr. Mansbridge is too much the consummate professional to say it (though he does a good job of implying it), but maybe Doyle should perhaps read his own paper? Or maybe a book? Or have someone read one to him and point to the pictures?

Canada is involved in an international conflict, and whether Doyle agrees with it or not is irrelevant – in a democracy it is the right, the burden, of each free citizen to debate policy. But, to sit back and sarcastically criticize the small amount of air time dedicated to celebrating the men and women in our armed forces during the holiday season is at best moronic, at worst intentionally misleading.

Thank God we have real journalists like Mr. Mansbridge to offer informed opinion.

Yours,

Brendan Christie
 
I must say that it is a pleasant change to have the CBC on our side for a change.  I remember the days of Oka when the likes of Ralph Benmurgi on his CBC mid day news show all but put horns and pitchforks on every CF member.  We could do no right and were the target of the left leaning establishment on an almost daily roto. 

Cheers to the CBC for the change of heart and "get suffed" to the Globe and Mail and Mr Doyle in particular.
 
I left a reply and the peom by Charles Province and i got this reply
Major Pain from Canada writes: Personally, I'd be happy to see Mr. Ignatieff go. However, I think he's also good for the party in that he represents a viewpoint held by many Liberals. Dion and Iggy working together will strengthen the party, but there will be bumps in the road. Look at the Chretien-Martin team. Unbeatable, even though they differed on much. This is better than the Conservative lockdown on dissenting ideas that we have seen thus far.

Oh, and My name and town, I imporved on your jingoistic SUPPORT OUR TROOPS rant:

IT IS THE ZEALOT
by Major Charles M. Pain

IT IS THE ZEALOT, not the soldier,
Who rails against freedom of the press in the name of war.

IT IS THE ZEALOT, not the soldier,
Who would modify freedom of speech so as not to offend 'the troops'.

IT IS THE ZEALOT, not the soldier,
Who would take away our freedom to demonstrate in the name of 'national security'.

IT IS THE ZEALOT, not the soldier,
Who would give a fair trial to those accused of only the 'right' crimes, and would ship the rest off to camps under a security certificate.

IT IS THE ZEALOT who salutes the flag blindly,
Who denies the use of the flag to those who disagree with him and
Whose rhetoric is the pornography of 'the flag',
And who denigrates our troops by presuming to be man enough to speak for them.

and there's people who are using the peom to change it into "It is soldiers who take away freedoms (military coups, police states). "
or this "IS IS THE SOLDIER, not the peacekeeper
that kills, maims, destroys, leaves children fatherless, women weeping."

Why are people so Retarded?
 
Something I read a while ago the Sun, Lorrie Goldstein, We're right, They're Evil, 10 Dec 06


“The contemporary anointed and those who follow them make much of their ‘compassion’ for the less fortunate, their ‘concern’ for the environment, and their being ‘anti-war’ ... as if these were characteristics which distinguish them from people with opposite views on public policy.

The very idea that ... an opponent of the prevailing vision ... has just as much compassion for the poor and the disadvantaged, that he is just as much appalled by pollution, or as horrified by the sufferings and slaughter imposed by war ... would be a very discordant note in the vision of the anointed ... this would mean that opposing arguments on social policy were arguments about methods, probabilities and empirical evidence — with compassion, caring and the like being common features on both sides ...

This clearly is not the vision of the anointed ... (that) has become inextricably intertwined with the egos of those who believe it ... (theirs) is not simply a vision of the world and its functioning in a causal sense, but is also a vision of themselves and of their moral role in that world.

It is a vision of differential rectitude ... Problems exist because others are not as wise or as virtuous as the anointed.”

Goldstein was writing about Liberal vs. Conservative approaches to social policy when he was quoting Thomas Sowell here. The anointed are those people who hold "as the prevailing, paternalistic liberal vision of our age" and are "an alliance of political, judicial, academic and media elites. "

He goes on to draw some parallels, but basically it all boiled down to the "anointed's" dictum that ,

Agree, or you’re a bigot

and thus by extension, if you're a bigot 'I'm' a good guy.

In this case war is bad, because George Bush started it (and he ain't one of us), and soldiers wage war so, they're bad as well.

Sort of Argumentum ad Nazium taken to a new degree but coupled with a self-righteous self-justifying intellectual deafness. To wit, they cannot hear any other argument except their own, and in their deafness, condemn all who are not mouthing their own words to bigotry.



Quotes from the Toronto Sun, 10 Dec 06, Shared under the Dair Dealings Provisions of the Copyright Act, RSC.



 
cplcaldwell said:
In this case war is bad, because George Bush started it (and he ain't one of us), and soldiers wage war so, they're bad as well.


Quotes from the Toronto Sun, 10 Dec 06, Shared under the Dair Dealings Provisions of the Copyright Act, RSC.

The latest polls show the majority of Americans have lost faith in George Bush not for starting the Iraq war but for how his administration has managed it. The same poll showed that the only organization left that Americans trust is the military and the Generals for talking truth to power.
 
The same poll showed that the only organization left that Americans trust is the military and the Generals for talking truth to power.

Good point, Baden Guy, in that regard the American public seems to have evolved past their past positions: Have Canadians so evolved?

I wonder sometimes when I read the shrill pronouncements that are being levelled at (for instance) CDS in some online blogs. IMHO, we're damn lucky to have a boss like this.

Why do I say this? look at the results.

Why do people rant against CDS and other senior CF leaders? (Again, IMHO) because they are fundamentally unable to accept anything that comes from the military as sensible (unless of course it has to do with white pick up trucks).
 
I was curious so I checked the Letters to the Editor in today's G&M. There was no letter that spoke to this topic. Except for this posted earlier in this thread.

CBC's reporting has included the debate over the mission, Peter Mansbridge retorts
PETER MANSBRIDGE
 
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/afghanistan/afghanistan-survey2006.html
Poll done for the CBC in November

1. Generally speaking, would you say that your opinion of the Canadian Armed Forces is %
Very favourable 34
Somewhat favourable 39
Not very fabourable 14
Not at all favourable 10
Don't know/No answer 3

Favourably inclined towards the CF: 73%  Not bad.  Ask George Bush or even Paul Martin what numbers in the 30s and 40s feel like



2. Do you feel more proud, less proud, or about the same pride, in the Canadian Forces today as you did five years ago? %
More proud 38
Less proud 13
About the same pride 46
Don't know/No answer 3

38-13=25%   25% of Canadians have more pride in the CF than they did even though they are engaged in fighting



3. When it comes to Canada's role in the world, some people say that Canada should focus on a peace-building role in the world. Others say that Canada should focus on active combat roles with our allied countries. Which view is closer to your own?  %
Peace-building roles 80
Active combat roles with allied countries 16
Don't know/No answer 4

We might see this as a bit of a false dichotomy in that Active Combat can be and is part of Peace-Building  - perhaps Canadians understand that as well?




4. I would like to know how you feel about Canada's involvements around the world in the last several decades. Please tell me if you are proud or not proud of each of the following: a) Canada's involvement in United Nations peace-building operations around the world since World War Two? %
Proud 92
Not proud 6
Don't know/No answer 2

Don't know that there is any reason NOT to be proud



4. b) Canada's non-participation in the U.S.-led war in Iraq? %
Proud 78
Not proud 20
Don't know/No answer 2

No Ten Foot Pole Handy


4. c) Canada's recent involvement in Afghanistan? %
Proud 55
Not proud 42
Don't know/No answer 3

THIS one is a real problem - on the other hand there is still a majority of support for the proposition


5. As you may know, Canadian troops are now active in Afghanistan. Why do you think Canadian troops are there? What is the reason or reasons?  %

Support U.S. troops / U.S. foreign policy / help George Bush 22
Negative U.S. influence / pressure 2

US Toady Score - 24

Support NATO/support United Nations 5
Restore peace 13
Defeat Taliban / warlords / insurgents 9
Help create democracy 8
War on terror / defeat world terrorism/defeat Al-Qaeda 8
Peacekeeping 24
Humanitarian assistance/reconstruction 18
Stabilize Afghanistan 2
Sent by Canadian government 2

Right thing to do score 89


Other SPECIFY 6
DK/NA=0 11

Right-to-be-there vs US-Toady ratio 4:1


6. Regarding Canada's military involvement in Afghanistan, do you... (%)

                2002 2004 2006 March 2006 June 2006 Oct 2006 Nov
Approve     75 61 49 56 48 50
Disapprove 23 35 48 40 50 48

We appear to have hit an equilibrium


7. As far as you know, is the Canadian mission in Afghanistan part of a U.S.-led coalition or part of a United Nations approved NATO mission? %

U.S. led coalition? 35
UN approved NATO mission? 53
Don't know/No answer 12

The number that still thinks this is a US mission or don't know is still high but probably not much likely to go lower


8. In your opinion, should Canadian Forces %
Stay in Afghanistan past the year 2009 10
Stay in Afghanistan until 2009 and then return to Canada, or 23
Return from Afghanistan before 2009?  59
Depends  –
Don't know/No answer 8

Another Problem


9. Do you think in the end the Canadian mission in Afghanistan is likely to be successful or not successful? %
Successful 34
Not successful 58
Don't know/No answer 7

And here is the reason for the problems - Lack of Confidence in the ultimate success of the mission


10. Here are some reasons why Canadian Forces might stay in or might leave Afghanistan

a) Some experts say that if Canadian Forces left Afghanistan, it would undermine international efforts to help that country and the Taliban might return to power there. In your opinion is this %
A good reason to stay in Afghanistan, or 58
Not a good reason to stay in Afghanistan? 38
Don't know/No answer 4

58% of Canadians want to help Afghanistan and the international community


10. b) Some experts say that the Canadian mission in Afghanistan has increased Canada's image and influence in world affairs. In your opinion is this %
A good reason to stay in Afghanistan, or 32
Not a good reason to stay in Afghanistan? 64
Don't know/No answer 4

Influence alone isn't a good enough reason


10. c) So far 42 Canadian soldiers have been killed in Afghanistan. In your opinion is this %
A good reason to leave Afghanistan, or 41
Not a good reason to leave Afghanistan? 56
Don't know/No answer 3

41% of Canadians are sentimental or lacking in backbone
56% of Canadians are willing to stay the course in the face of casualties



10. d) Some experts say that Canada's mission in Afghanistan will increase the chances of Canada becoming a target of terrorist attacks. In your opinion is this %
A good reason to leave Afghanistan, or 44
Not a good reason to leave Afghanistan? 53
Don't know/No answer 3

Based on d I would say that sentimentality isn't the problem.
53% are willing to stay the course.

So from this survey I'd say that the CF has the continuing support of 75 to 80% of the Canadian public, even in the face of a fighting role.  If they have problems it is with the Government for putting/leaving you there.  Most people see good reasons to be there.  Few people (although a distressingly large number - about 20-25%) seem to be determinedly anti American.  But the big kicker is how many people (perhaps including the anti-US types) are against involvement out of FEAR of consequences - both to serving personnel and to themselves.

The issue then is NOT that they don't trust the troops, or the CDS, or even Harper, Dion, Chretien or Martin.  Those that are against the mission appear to be primarily afraid.  Perhaps understandably for a country where 25% of its current population are recent immigrants who have come here because it is a safe haven.

For the rest - the anti-americans etc - it is hard for me to find a redeeming argument for them.


 
By the way, here is the link to Mansbridge's Retort mentioned by Baden Guy.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20061214.wmansbridge14/BNStory/Entertainment/

Pretty good ....



[Edit:  Or if you had read this whole topic, you would have read it in Post #38 http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/54573/post-495766.html#msg495766 ]
 
Oh, and one other thing - for those that don't question the mission, just the direction and probability of success,  here's another interesting release from the Senlis Council.

I can't say that they don't make sense....

...International agencies, including the Canadian International Development Agency, have failed to tackle the food emergency in southern Afghanistan, and NATO soldiers in the region are paying the price, a new report says.

The paper, released Thursday by the Senlis Council, an international think tank, says "misguided" policies by agencies such as CIDA and the British Department for International Development have left the local population hungry and angry towards the international community.

"The Taliban are waging a successful hearts-and-minds strategy in southern Afghanistan; the international community is not," the report says. "As a result, the [NATO] military forces on the ground are forced to fight in an increasingly hostile environment."....

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2006/12/14/senlis-report-061214.html




 
I noticed in the CTV reports, it seems to be the military’s fault that the aid agencies “can’t” do their job.  ::)

Funny my rather anti-US sister inlaw was in Aceh after the wave hit, her opinion of NGO's is rather low because of that trip, she conceded that the US Navy was one of the few functioning groups there.
 
I hate watching the news these days, but I watched the Monday night piece when my wife told me what was on.  I'd like to thank Mr Mansbridge and his team for putting that together.  It was tough to watch, but I'm glad I did.  Our guys did us proud.  My co-workers mentioned Tuesday night's show to me because I ended up in it (visual only). 

The CBC team made a series about the Canadians who are involved in the war, and I thought they did a great job showing that the soldiers and their families are people.  If that upsets some art critic then so be it. 


Cheers
 
Here, from today’s (16 Dec 06) Globe and Mail is Christie Blatchford’s word on the Doyle/Mansbridge spat; it is reproduced under the Fail Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20061215.wxcoblatch16/BNStory/specialComment/home
Our soldiers deserve the country's attention

CHRISTIE BLATCHFORD
From Saturday's Globe and Mail

I was en route here this week when the CBC's The National devoted much of one newscast to Canadian soldiers and the mission in Afghanistan as part of what the network calls its On the Road series.

That night, I was in that madly affluent, zany, over-the-top Middle East bastion of capitalism called Dubai, where every entrepreneur and shopper on the planet is welcomed — well, except for, as the posh guide book in my acreage of a hotel room reminded me, “those travelling on Israeli passports or with Israeli visas.”

Anyway, I didn't see a lick of the CBC news that night. And I guess, by rights, I shouldn't write about it. But I will anyway, albeit peripherally, just as so many people expound upon Afghanistan without having once set foot in it.

I gather, from what I've read, that the show included Peter Mansbridge anchoring from Edmonton, home to one of the nation's biggest bases; featured interviews with some of the soldiers recently decorated for valour for their service here (these would be the men of the 1st Battalion Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, who were in Kandahar until late August, when they handed over to the 1st Battalion Royal Canadian Regiment, whose troops are here now) and families of serving soldiers; and that it ate up a good chunk of time.

In an inside-baseball sort of way, it seems the coverage has sparked a bit of a brouhaha.

The show aired Monday; two days later, my Globe colleague John Doyle took the public broadcaster to task for making a heinous link between the festive season and the mission and for what was in his eyes the fawning tone of the show, and the day after that, Mr. Mansbridge replied in the pages of The Globe with a spirited defence of what he considers the network's comprehensive and even-handed coverage.

To this, all I can do is borrow the old U.S. Army acronym — SNAFU, which means, and I use the sanitized family newspaper version, Situation Normal: All Fouled Up.

In other words, as Canadian troops are here doing what they do at the behest of our government (putting their lives on the line), back home the Canadian elite are doing what they do (putting their vocal cords at risk).

This was, after all, the same week in which Bloc Québécois Leader Gilles Duceppe threatened to bring down the government over the mission to Afghanistan, and Michael Ignatieff cautioned new Liberal Leader Stéphane Dion not to let the issue split the Liberal Party.

Yes, heavens knows, that would be the worst thing that could happen out of Afghanistan, that the Liberals were fractured such that they don't march back to their rightful place in power.

I can think of 44 reasons (that is, the number of Canadian soldiers who have been killed in Afghanistan since 2002) why all this is the furthest thing from funny, but otherwise, it just might be.

Mr. Doyle's theme was that by doing a special on serving-soldiers in the runup to Christmas, the CBC was taking the usual mawkish festive stuff on the tube at this time of year to a new low and deliberately sentimentalizing the military, or what he called “fetishizing” soldiers and by extension, war.

Because I didn't see the show, I don't know if that's a fair criticism or not (Mr. Mansbridge says it's not.)

But even if it were so, it's not that the public broadcaster hasn't engaged in this shtick before. As one soldier I know said this week, “What? Better that the CBC goes back to fetishizing the Liberal Party and their leadership race?”

And true enough.

The Mother Corp, and the major private networks, too, certainly covered the party convention wall to wall and back again — for days on end, not the better part of one lousy hour — and at least one network (and I can't remember which one as I was flipping among them) carried parts of the obsequious videos of past Liberal leaders that preceded various speeches or big events and which amounted to nothing but soppy propaganda. One network, and again I'm not sure which, even carried interim leader Bill Graham's farewell night, complete with his journalist son Patrick's warm (and really quite lovely) tribute — uncut.

Proper and fitting it is that a son should sing his father's praises among the father's colleagues and peers and fellow believers, but to carry it on national television?

In my bones, I suspect that when some people criticize the Afghanistan mission, what they are actually uneasy about is the military, and soldiers, and particularly, given the combat focus of the Canadian efforts here, soldiers who actually are shot at and shoot.

There's no crime or shame in saying that. People should shout it from the rooftops, but be honest about it.

It is even understandable, since many Canadians (under years of mostly Liberal rule, it should be noted) have grown almost entirely disconnected from their military. Bases closed and disappeared as a presence in cities and towns; there was the nasty business in Somalia; aging Sea Kings fell out of the sky at regular intervals; and in Canadian schools, teachers dutifully helped generations of children address their letters to “Dear Canadian Peacekeeper.”

The cumulative effect was that soldiers were rendered strangers, and that in what passes for the intellectual salons of central Canada, “soldier” came to be synonymous with “joke” or “guy who can't get a real job,” which is pretty rich from those who dwell in university ivory towers, editorial boardrooms and on Parliament Hill.

It is no accident that the single most common observation I have heard first-time reporters, arriving to Kandahar, make after a few days is how bright and articulate the young troops are. It is usually said with considerable surprise. I think it mirrors some of the preconceived notions influential Canadians in the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal pointy-head corridor hold about their soldiers.

In the Prairies, in the Maritimes and in the small places that provide so many of Canada's soldiers, they're not afraid of those who wear the green suit, or uncomfortable in their presence. They are their sons and daughters, lovers and friends. They would have regarded the CBC special as a welcome gesture from the network that speaks most often for the heart of Central Canada, and perhaps even deemed it patronizing, because such gestures are so few and far between.

Even if The National gave too much time to soldiers this one night, who more richly deserves the country's attention and air time?
I'd rather watch 100 hours about those who would lay down their lives for their brothers, than see one more minute about those who debate the merits of sacrifice from the hothouses of Ottawa and Toronto.

cblatchford@globeandmail.com

Spot on, Ms. Blatchford!  Thanks for telling the Bloor Street commentariat the simple truth.

 
Hummm….seems just a month or so ago, the CBC could do no right. I am so glad to have the many CBC detractors on thread http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/53353.0.html  coming onside and completely reversing themselves. It takes big men to do that and you deserve the credit.

Not that I wanna rub it in much….

Perhaps Christy Blanchford has a good point, that Canadians have an inherent unease about their own military. I can’t be objective enough to see her point of view from the outside of the organization, so her point may well be valid. I believe that Canadians easily accept their military because we represent them in diversity and region, we correspond to their cultural wishes and we’ve a history of good behaviour and positive deeds. What most Canadians feel skittish about is operations that could devolve into what America has experienced over the last 40 years. For reasons we Canadians feel are positive, we as a nation have refused to get involved in questionable wars. Wars that in retrospect were about American national interest. Wars that had all kinds of bloody nefariousness about them. Wars of questionable morality.
People on this site can debate the validity of that last statement, but Canadians aren’t myopic about their military. They just don’t want to tropes about the world causing more suffering. That is what Canadians are fearful about. Blanchford missed that in her defence of our nation’s military news coverage. I wonder if her mindset has room for that particular concept?

Just an aside, I remember Miss Blanchford well when she was a “first-time reporter”,  commenting “how bright and articulate the young troops are…”. She asked us one night on the road to Sarajevo way back when what those lovely green lights floating up to the sky from the ground were. “Serb tracers” we replied, noting it had finally dawned on her she was far from Toronto. Nice to see her become the confident and veteran correspondent she is, after a long education. It took her 14 years to get this far, so perhaps we can lend a bit of understanding to the point that Joe Canada public doesn’t understand their own military that well.
 
warpig said:
For reasons we Canadians feel are positive, we as a nation have refused to get involved in questionable wars. Wars that in retrospect were about American national interest.
You believe that Canadians see it as a "positive" that our military had been neglected actively run down to the point that, until recently, it was simply not capable of participating in "questionable wars"? I personally don't think your average Canadian has bothered to be adequately informed about the decision-making behind any of our deployments - - except possibly in hindsight, when any thought has been dragged down to the level of politicians' sound-bites as they attempt to score hazard-free points in Parliament.

And you also believe there to be such a large gap between the interests of the US and Canada? I would suggest that, despite the ravings of those who live in Starbucks in downtown Toronto (usually wailing about the evils of US globalization), sharing similar heritage, representative democracy, economics, and a pretty common landmass makes our interests quite similar.
 
The reporter's name is Christie Blatchford, not Christy Blanchford.  Attention to detail is always a good sign.
 
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