FRS vs Mil Issue Radios

[ZipperHead]

C_Canuk, thanks for the impromptu comms class. I probably learned more from reading that than trying to decipher the lesson plans, manuals, corporate knowledge, etc.

Like most things in life, it is all about education. Unfortunately, we sometimes make things harder to learn than they have to be. As well, trying to "port" over from one style of kit to another doesn't always cut it: "Where's old squelch on this thing?!! I can't live without my old squelch switch!!!".

I have no doubt that the enemy, assuming that they are as determined to sit in and listen in on our FRS comms, could do what you say they could: in theory. In practice, I don't imagine it would happen that easily. I have only ONCE in my whole career heard of the EW guys stick it to somebody by recording the persons transmissions, manipulate it, then play it back, much to their chagrin. I think that there are far simpler (and effective) ways of fucking with someone. I am completely in the dark as to how hard it would for "them" to monitor our secure comms would be, but I tend to think that there are far too many people who put too much faith in "their" inability to do so. Personally, I think that "they" would far sooner plant a "bug" or some other device within one of our camps (or a vehicle) via the civilian workers, translaters, sympathetic NGO's, media,etc rather than listening in on FRS comms.

Again, I'm sure that there are theories to cover all the possibilities you mention, and no doubt it has been practiced on exercises (where there are so many inside "leaks" that it wouldn't be too hard for the OPFOR to zoom in on the frequencies (i.e they know the SOPS, and freq ranges used) that it wouldn't be altogether difficult. Not unlike when the OPFOR get a briefing on where a friendly patrol will be at a certain time, or an OP to bump is located, and receive the trace, grid squares, freqs etc.

And regarding the batteries, I am 99% sure that you are right. However, when all you get is the shitty rechargable batteries (due to the cost of "normal" batteries) that last 15mins , and that is all you know, you quickly give up on the system. You can't train to fire a weapon by saying "budget cut, budget cut, budget cut" every time you pull the trigger. You can't train with a radio that doesn't receive/transmit due to dead batteries: putting your hand to your head like a fake cell-phone and pretending to tx/rx doesn't really have the same effect.

Again, I would LOVE to have a piece of gear that works, without having to go out and spend my own money. Yes, there are all kinds of reasons NOT to use unauthorized kit. But something that works, with all it's inherent risks and flaws, beats something that stays in it's case, in the vehicle or QM stores, because it can't be used (lack of training, lack of proper EIS, shite batteries, etc). Make things easy to work, that do more than something that can be picked up at Walmart, and I'm sure everyone will embrace it. I don't know of too many guys who enjoy something that is a pain in the ass to learn or operate.

Al

 

[GO!!!]

I am still waiting for an EW type to supply an instance when they have used their supposedly stupendous powers on anyone but us or our allies in the current operational context. 

I have to assume that the deafening silence that answers my question means that we are the only ones our EW is really capable of spoofing.

canuck, your example of an EW det sitting 3km away is ludicrous. We all know that EW dets require multiple sections of mod, flying kitchens, generators and daily re-sup, so stop pretending that you are everywhere all of the time. You have some great ways of ruining our day, but you have yet to prove that you are capable of foiling our enemies.

Increasing numbers of IEDs in Iraq are being detonated with cell phones. When will EW begin deploying with every convoy/ patrol in order to prevent this? That would be a useful skill. Sitting behind a computer at 742 Sigs Sqn telling me how to do my job is'nt.

 

[Sig_Des]

I am still waiting for an EW type to supply an instance when they have used their supposedly stupendous powers on anyone but us or our allies in the current operational context. 

GO, since jamming can be interpreted as an Act of War, and could lead to the start of hostilities between countries, I very much doubt you will hear any of the rubberheads supply an instance where they have used them on anyone but us and our allies.

Most of the stuff EW can do, they won't tell you, OPSEC.

and believe me, you would be VERY surprised as to what they CAN do...pretty scary stuff...but I'm not going into it, because I don't want to infringe on OPSEC, and if anyone decides what they can pass off, it's a 291ers place to do so.

There are, however, some threads reguarding EW and 291ers in the C&E Branch Forum

 

[Ex Ranger Instructor]

I am still waiting for an EW type to supply an instance when they have used their supposedly stupendous powers on anyone but us or our allies in the current operational context. 

I have to assume that the deafening silence that answers my question means that we are the only ones our EW is really capable of spoofing.

canuck, your example of an EW det sitting 3km away is ludicrous. We all know that EW dets require multiple sections of mod, flying kitchens, generators and daily re-sup, so stop pretending that you are everywhere all of the time. You have some great ways of ruining our day, but you have yet to prove that you are capable of foiling our enemies.

Increasing numbers of IEDs in Iraq are being detonated with cell phones. When will EW begin deploying with every convoy/ patrol in order to prevent this? That would be a useful skill. Sitting behind a computer at 742 Sigs Sqn telling me how to do my job is'nt.

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.11/bomb.html?pg=2&topic=bomb&topic_set=  Read the article.  They're already using EW to prevent remote detonations in Iraq, and have been doing so for some time.

 

[GO!!!]

GO, since jamming can be interpreted as an Act of War, and could lead to the start of hostilities between countries, I very much doubt you will hear any of the rubberheads supply an instance where they have used them on anyone but us and our allies.

IEDs, dead and injured soldiers, destroyed vehicles and widows orphans and amputees can also be considered acts of war - but don't let that ruin a good story.

Most of the stuff EW can do, they won't tell you, OPSEC.

Ahhhh yes, OPSEC, the same reason we can't know how much a general makes, or who those guys who drive around south east of ottawa in black suburbans and oakleys are.

I have about as much faith in our EW as I do in our politicians - smoke, mirrors, baseless claims and alot of wasted money, but they sure give us a decent rogering!

Has Canada deployed any warlocks yet - or is that a secret too?

 

[ZipperHead]

I had a witty comment about countering all these FRS and other detonating devices, but my computer froze while I was typing it (EW gods angry at me!!), and I got the Wired article into my brain-housing group instead. Thank Christ that these guys are able to counter this shit.

It's nice to see that there is somebody even more cynical than I am (GO!!!!!). I have no doubt that the EW world has a few tricks up their sleeve, but claiming OPSEC is kind of lame, if you ask me. Considering that the Wired! article spells out quite a bit, without getting into specifics (after all, the bomb makers over in Iraq figure out the the good guys have been jamming them (umm, an act of war, in a war zone). How about now in A'stan, now that we're on the prowl for the Al Qaeda, Taliban, etc? I know.... OPSEC. I bet they got death-rays, and plasma cannons, and stuff!!!! Sorry, but the cloak and dagger stuff grows old pretty quick.

One "mission" I was on in Bosnia in 2000-01, which is 6 days of my life that I'll never get back, was to "watch" a big radio antenna in Livno, at the police station (I'd tell you what type of vehicle it was that we were using, but, you know, OPSEC, and all chap......hint, it rhymes with peyote). We were watching to see, well, I'm not really sure what we were watching it for, as it never moved, or got taller or anything, but the Sigs world was sure interested. Apparently it sent and received radio signals, or something fancy like that. We heard tell that the EW fella's drove around in their LSVW (or another stealthy vehicle) and tried to triangulate some radio signals in the area (hint: look for the 70m tall tower that we were watching!!!). Maybe we were the diversion. Maybe the EW guys just didn't have a clue. I'll never know, I guess. But, man was that ever boring!! If that's what the EW world is like (as opposed to the EOD world, as per the Wired! article), they can have it. Watching paint dry is more exciting than that.

Al

 

[Tracker 23A]

GO!!!,

it seems somewhere down the line you have been effected with comm's issue's.  Although you have convinced yourself our EW capabilities are unjust and unreliable, I can assure you they are quite capable of doing a vast array of tasks within their field. 

To get a better appreciation of the EW capabilities, you should visit the Communications Security Establishment website, as it is their function in the Federal Government to define everything with signals (SIGINT).  The CSE, if you don't know, is the equivalent to the NSA in the states.  Plenty of CommsResearch guys could probably tell you some interesting things, but since we infantry soldier's are nothing when it comes to the daily issues of national security as compared to their everyday job in NDHQ and other "listening centres" around Canada and abroad, we simply don't get what they do. 

Whether one wants to accept it or not, the majority of our intelligence in all theatres, domestic and foreign, comes from SIGINT. 

http://www.cse-cst.gc.ca/index-e.html

 

[ZipperHead]

I won't speak on behalf of GO!!!, but I think most guys know that there are super-secret establishments that can do all kinds of voodoo with all the technology available. It's just that I have a hard time believing a lot of the hype. And when somebody says: "Oh yeah, we can do that, but we can't tell you about it" my BS detector lights up like a Xmas tree. I suppose I'm the type that has to see it to believe it. And as I'm a pretty big threat to Nat'l Security I'm not worthy, I guess. Save the cloak and dagger stuff for the chicks: army guys need a little more than that to be impressed (or convinced).

I, like GO!!!!, just want to hear of an example of something that the EW boys/girls have done, in operations, that isn't classified, or won't result in the Secret Squirrels smashing through all our windows seconds after it's posted here, to indicate that all these measures we take (and the enemy does as well) are worth all the hush-hush. I don't know, something like saying that they were able to triangulate in on an Al-Qaeda base, or drop a SHRIKE on a Taliban compound. Otherwise, it's just smoke and mirrors (and BS).

Al

 

[Tracker 23A]

I won't speak on behalf of GO!!!, but I think most guys know that there are super-secret establishments that can do all kinds of voodoo with all the technology available. It's just that I have a hard time believing a lot of the hype. And when somebody says: "Oh yeah, we can do that, but we can't tell you about it" my BS detector lights up like a Xmas tree. I suppose I'm the type that has to see it to believe it. And as I'm a pretty big threat to Nat'l Security I'm not worthy, I guess. Save the cloak and dagger stuff for the chicks: army guys need a little more than that to be impressed (or convinced).

I, like GO!!!!, just want to hear of an example of something that the EW boys/girls have done, in operations, that isn't classified, or won't result in the Secret Squirrels smashing through all our windows seconds after it's posted here, to indicate that all these measures we take (and the enemy does as well) are worth all the hush-hush. I don't know, something like saying that they were able to triangulate in on an Al-Qaeda base, or drop a SHRIKE on a Taliban compound. Otherwise, it's just smoke and mirrors (and BS).

Al

well I guess you are in for a long wait... :-X

 

[ZipperHead]

Is that because it's so hush-hush, or because it hasn't happened?

You know, I wear garlic cloves to keep vampires away. It works you know, because I've never encountered a vampire!!

Al

 

[Tracker 23A]

Is that because it's so hush-hush, or because it hasn't happened?

You know, I wear garlic cloves to keep vampires away. It works you know, because I've never encountered a vampire!!

Al

Perhaps it has happened but since the general public (including myself) aren't made aware of the goings on around them, does that mean it doesn't?

 

[George Wallace]

Sorry, but the cloak and dagger stuff grows old pretty quick.

...................................... I'll never know, I guess. But, man was that ever boring!! If that's what the EW world is like (as opposed to the EOD world, as per the Wired! article), they can have it. Watching paint dry is more exciting than that.

Al

As does all the Allan Luomala stuff growing around here is growing old pretty quick.

Your tirades are getting as exciting as watching paint dry, but that is why you are here isn't it.  Nothing to do with the FRS vs Mil Issue Radio topic at all.  Just making us wish we were actually watching paint dry, as not have to listen to you.

If you have no concerns or respect for OPSEC, go find a happy retirement job in a commune in BC and smoke hemp all day, or perhaps join a protest at York U.  Just because you don't see anyone doing their specialty doesn't mean they aren't doing it.  If I were to believe your comments here, then you must of been humping the pouch rather doing your job as a Recce Soldier.  Actually, has anyone seen you do your job?

 

[ZipperHead]

I do have concerns for OPSEC, George, but I guess because I have my doubts about something that goes on, I must be a severe pooch seducer.

I think that there are people who have witnessed me in action, but I had to kill 'em, because it was covert ops. Actually I am doing something work related, but it wouldn't interest you, I'm sure. Nothing like sitting on a high horse, but it gets the job done.

Have fun in YOUR retirement. Look me up at Y.U.

Al

 

[George Wallace]

Look me up at Y.U.

Al

So.  What are you applying for?   ;D

Beers

George

 

[George Wallace]

So. On this note.  The Thread has been Hijacked.  Is there anything else relevant to the arguments for or against FRS that has not already been covered?  Anything on the Pros and Cons of them over the Mil Issue Radios?

If not, we will close it down.

Other non-relevant posts can be posted/started as New Topics.

 

[GO!!!]

well, to close,

EW says that they can do amazing things.

Allan and I say "BS, prove it," and OPSEC suddenly becomes an issue.

I will continue to use my civvie motorola, as will the rest of the field army because;

1) They work, and the army radios dont, and;

2) Most chains of command accept this;

3) EW WOs will not fall from the sky and take it away from me.

Have a nice day.  8)

 

[chrisf]

EW says that they can do amazing things.

Allan and I say "BS, prove it," and OPSEC suddenly becomes an issue.

It's a shame that EW don't deploy randomly to more exercises... as they can indeed do amazing and frightening things.

Consider that assuming you're using an unencrypted radio (Military, FRS, whatever), using a $50 radio scanner, a bit of copper wire, and compass,a topo map and a little time, I can tell you...

1) Where you are.
2) Who you are.
3) What you're doing.
4) What your strengths and limitations are.

Throw in a laptop, and a transmitter of some sort (radio shack or e-bay has everything you'd need) and it's not that hard to capture your voice and imitate your orders.

 

[chrisf]

That last post being said, don't get me wrong, the issued radios are garbage, but the answer is NOT FRS radios, the answer is to replace the issued radios...

 

[Gunner]

I'd just like to wade in, in support of our EW folks.  I've deployed several times with a robust EW capability and they have alway provided value added to the over all mission.  The other moderators know that I don't like it when folks wave the OPSEC flag but in this case, I believe they are justified to state so in this case.  For all you EW guys who think you are unappreciated  .    

 

[Bert]

Being an ATIS tech, I can fully understand the need for communications OPSEC and the issues Allan
and GO!!! describe.

While on tour or taskings, I can inherit a number of portable and fixed radios and repeaters.  These aren't 
tactical sets like the army 521 or 522 but similar sets nevertheless.  Of note, the accessories for many radios
were damaged or intermittent.  Battery life, that should be 8 hours under normal use for a new one,
actually lasted between 1/2 hour and 4 hours.  Once equipment is identified to be defective, a procurement
or repair process ensues.  During a six month tour, a ordered a number of replacement batteries.   Almost
at the end of the tour, I received a limited number of previously used batteries with the same capacity problem.
Without getting into specifics about why, what and who, for a good part of my tour, poor quality batteries had
to be issued because there was nothing else.  Depending on the techs and the spare parts, field repair actions
may be limited to restore servicability.

Another problem was the protocol of the nets.  On the main net, several conversations could be going on at the
same time from OSCER preparing for aircraft to maintenance crews on the roads.  If a couple of guys wanted
to pull cable up in the roofs and needed point to point RF comms, they'd have to use the net and stack the
channel with pointless dribble while maintaining protocol.

For the most part, these two issues pushed some members to use FRS type radios.  The chain of command
feared the loss of OPSEC, members would communicate soley with the FRSs rather than the military radios,
and safety issues if a member was out in the field and didn't have a military net radio.

The nets are important as the traffic on them is monitored, recorded and members use protocol and OPSEC.  Its
within military control.  We had to pull conversations off a comm logger one day as an incident involving the
fueling of an aircraft took place.  The data provided context of the event.  The use of FRSs or non-military radios
goes outside of this.

From my little corner in the tech world, the CF can improve the level of service support units are allowed,
standardize life cycles and exchange degraded equipment, simplify the supply chains, and allow special
purpose nets within fixed or deployed situations.  And I'd like a spectrum analyser too.