Friendly Advice for potential Infantry Officer candidates

[vonGarvin]

Beyond that TV, just wondering if your post was prompted by the PRBs you are now swamped with because of the defensive ex that the Ph III course just finished, or is that just a coincidence

Nope, in fact, those guys from 1.1 all still had the hunger, drive and desire, but just need a "do over" with a bit more mentoring.  It was BMOQ-L's string of VW's on week one of the course.  It was refreshing to see/hear that string from 1.1 all lay bare their desire that for them, it's "Infantry or Bust" as far as they were concerned.  They have the desire, it's just that they need a bit more time is all.

 

[BC Old Guy]

in prep for DP1.1 this summer, he said you should, at a minimum, be able to ruck 75 lbs, 15km, in 2h15m, before showing up on course.

Why is this load, distance and time  a minimum standard?  This is faster, with a heavier load than the BFT - which has been validated and is the army standard.  This is a 9 min km - compared to the almost 11 min km required in the BFT, without consideration of other factors.

I've talked with vets who have completed training and ops with similar loads, and they regret the damage this caused to their bodies - often evident only years later.  The article on the "Weight of War" (http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/99486.0.html) should be considered.

Yes - in operations, the heavy load, and the faster speed may be needed - but should we accept that as the default for all training, all work-ups exercises and all operations?  Or should we be striving to develop equipment which is lighter, and Tactics, Technique's and Practices that, as the default, don't cause excessive injury to the soldiers we lead?

Yes - the Infantry Officer course is tough - it always has been (with variances over the years).  I've been using similar warnings to the officer applicants at my current unit - and I wouldn't want the course to be watered down.  However, I do question some of the arbitrary standards that are applied.

 

[GAP]

I wouldn't want to be wearing all the gear you guys now wear, humping in the heat .......

I thought our ruck was heavy, but now with all the ballistic stuff on top of that, it's gotta be murder....my  :2c:

 

[ballz]

Why is this load, distance and time  a minimum standard?  This is faster, with a heavier load than the BFT - which has been validated and is the army standard.  This is a 9 min km - compared to the almost 11 min km required in the BFT, without consideration of other factors.

To be clear, this load, distance and time, is not a minimum standard... The minimum standard is the BFT, which as TV said you have to do right at the start of course to continue.

This load, distance, and time was given to me, because I asked for a quantifiable goal to pursue that would replicate what I would be going through on field exercises.

I've talked with vets who have completed training and ops with similar loads, and they regret the damage this caused to their bodies - often evident only years later.  The article on the "Weight of War" (http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/99486.0.html) should be considered.

Yes - in operations, the heavy load, and the faster speed may be needed - but should we accept that as the default for all training, all work-ups exercises and all operations?  Or should we be striving to develop equipment which is lighter, and Tactics, Technique's and Practices that, as the default, don't cause excessive injury to the soldiers we lead?

Yes - the Infantry Officer course is tough - it always has been (with variances over the years).  I've been using similar warnings to the officer applicants at my current unit - and I wouldn't want the course to be watered down.  However, I do question some of the arbitrary standards that are applied.

While I've got an opinion, mine stinks... But TV is certainly the right person to answer your questions and I am sure he will be doing so shortly ;D

But I do like the idea of striving for lighter equipment

 

[aesop081]

Why is this load, distance and time  a minimum standard?

If you read carefuly, it is not a "standard", it is a recomendation on what level you should be at to make your life a bit more bearable.

  This is faster, with a heavier load than the BFT - which has been validated and is the army standard. 

The BFT is the army's minimum standard. Combat rarely happens at minimum standards.

 

[BC Old Guy]

This load, distance, and time was given to me, because I asked for a quantifiable goal to pursue that would replicate what I would be going through on field exercises.

Sorry - I'm not attacking you, but the person who gave you the info.  I'm glad you got the info - I don't think its incorrect.  However, I think the Inf School should take a close look at what they require during the conduct of their training.  The BFT is the minimum standard, however, when I see statements such as

he said you should, at a minimum, be able to ruck 75 lbs, 15km, in 2h15m,

  I understand that to be the de facto minimum standard, instead of the official standard.

 

[GAP]

It sounds more like a "train like you will work" standard than a minimum...

 

[BC Old Guy]

Rather than debate the nuances of words used, I'll return to the theme of the original post:

Infantry officer training is mentally and physically demanding.  Those who wish to be infantry officers need to be prepared.  The information provided by Technoviking is very good.  Anyone planning on being an infantry officer should read and heed.

 

[ArmyRick]

TV,

On the Infantry 3B Course (rthose that don't know, its the WO qualification), candidates can be assessed as either platoon commander or platoon 2IC roles to pass. Is it the same on 1.1 and 1.2 INF Courses?

I found that PL 2IC roles were more checklist like and were far less mentally stressfull than being in the PL Comd role. I still remember being the first guy in the breach as PL COMD (fighting patrol-ambush) on first night of the dismounted offensive week. The estimate and the backbriefs I think were more nerve racking than trying to complete the actual mission.

My advice to future infantry officers, imagine being sleep deprived, exhausted and hungry, now you also have to THINK (using the combat estimate as your tool) and come up with justifiable COA (Course of Action or a plan in simple terms). Be prepared, its not like NCM DP1 where you can get away with being a ballsy and fit pack mule (far less thinking on the course).

Good luck to those who give it a honest go!

 

[vonGarvin]

TV,

On the Infantry 3B Course (rthose that don't know, its the WO qualification), candidates can be assessed as either platoon commander or platoon 2IC roles to pass. Is it the same on 1.1 and 1.2 INF Courses?

I found that PL 2IC roles were more checklist like and were far less mentally stressfull than being in the PL Comd role. I still remember being the first guy in the breach as PL COMD (fighting patrol-ambush) on first night of the dismounted offensive week. The estimate and the backbriefs I think were more nerve racking than trying to complete the actual mission.

My advice to future infantry officers, imagine being sleep deprived, exhausted and hungry, now you also have to THINK (using the combat estimate as your tool) and come up with justifiable COA (Course of Action or a plan in simple terms). Be prepared, its not like NCM DP1 where you can get away with being a ballsy and fit pack mule (far less thinking on the course).

Good luck to those who give it a honest go!

Hey there
The Infantry Officers on DP 1.1 and 1.2 will act as pl 2IC, but they aren't "hard assessed" on it, not like a candidate on 3B.  It's just the leadership aspect of it. So, a debrief may be "Your Cas Evac and PW points were too far apart, you didn't do x, y or z, but your platoon knew you were in charge and for a guy who knows nothing of the tasks of a Pl 2IC, you gave it a good attempt.  Well done."

As for the weight/distance thing posted earlier: no, it's not a standard.  It's one officer's opinion on what you probably should be able to do in order to meet the demands of the course.  That's all.  And it's probably a very good estimate. 

 

[Redeye]

My advice to future infantry officers, imagine being sleep deprived, exhausted and hungry, now you also have to THINK (using the combat estimate as your tool) and come up with justifiable COA (Course of Action or a plan in simple terms). Be prepared, its not like NCM DP1 where you can get away with being a ballsy and fit pack mule (far less thinking on the course).

This is great advice.  I've had the privilege of sitting on several officer selection boards and I usually frame up a question to convey this sort of advice or idea - because I don't think a lot of applicants get that this is what they'll need to do - they need to be functioning far beyond just "survival mode" and need to be able to use the estimate process, come up with a workable plan, convey that plan to a bunch of candidates who are almost zombified themselves, and also to the DS.  The School does a good job of forcing you to use the estimate process to prove you can and to make all the considerations, and that is a large part of why it's not enough to just be able to physically endure the hardship of the course.  You have to be able to lead others through it because that is what is expected of the course candidates who made it to grad parade.

 

[Italiansoldier13]

What is involved in the fitness testing? I am  pretty physically fit been working out ritually since I started highschool but I wouldnt mind having an idea to work towards. I know the cadet testing is based on Standing long jump, pushups, pacer run, and situps. I have a feeling the officer fitness is far more difficult and covers more.

 

[Michael OLeary]

What is involved in the fitness testing? I am  pretty physically fit been working out ritually since I started highschool but I wouldnt mind having an idea to work towards. I know the cadet testing is based on Standing long jump, pushups, pacer run, and situps. I have a feeling the officer fitness is far more difficult and covers more.

You will find that searching the site will answer most of your questions:

site:army.ca PT test

 

[original_brad]

I've heard rumours that the infantry school will be conducting their own form of fitness testing for the CAP/ BMOQ-Land courses.  Any word on this??

 

[ArmyRick]

OK, enough with the rumours, the facts are you are assessed "formally" with the BFT (13 KM, decent load, under 2 Hours 30 minutes or there abouts).

If you are going to be an officer, than it should really not matter WHAT the PT standards are. As an Officer (infantry or otherwise) you are expected to lead by example and this starts with a high standard of Physical Fitness. As an officer you are expected to perform to a higher standard than the troops, end story. If you are not prepared for this (it starts with the right mind set) than seriously re-think your career path about pursuing a commission.

CF Officers must display a high degree of professionalism, conduct, leadership and fitness.

Before beggining a career as an officer I reccomend a very simple regime of running (don't worry about distances aim for 30-45 minutes continious), long distance walking (very improtant) and the basic calisthetics such as push ups, chin/pull ups, jump squats, leg raises, sit ups. Make it a habit to start at 5 in the morning. Get used to it.

Biggest thing, get your head into it 100% or don't waste the CF's time.

 

[vonGarvin]

I've heard rumours that the infantry school will be conducting their own form of fitness testing for the CAP/ BMOQ-Land courses.  Any word on this??

This rumour is completely false.
The prerequisite level of fitness for BMOQ-L is the CF Standard (aka "ExPres Test").

During BMOQ-L you will be required to achieve the Army level of fitness (aka "BFT").

 

[DELTADOG13]

Just to give you some insight. The second officer Techno Viking talks about was my Pl Comd. He started the tour as the junior Pl Comd and finished as the senior Pl Comd. He was decorated for said  incident. He was and still is the best combat officer I've ever met. I would follow him to hell and back!

DELTADOG13

 

[vonGarvin]

Just to give you some insight. The second officer Techno Viking talks about was my Pl Comd. He started the tour as the junior Pl Comd and finished as the senior Pl Comd. He was decorated for said  incident. He was and still is the best combat officer I've ever met. I would follow him to hell and back!

DELTADOG13

I was hoping that he would have received something higher for his acts that day, but that day is still with me, for both good reasons, and obviously bad reasons.



:cheers:

 

[daftandbarmy]

So, in conclusion, if you have issues at home (spouse, significant other, family or otherwise), don't waste my time.  If you are not in top physical shape, don't waste my time.  If you cannot stand to be incommunicado for extended periods of time, don't waste my time.  If you have no issues, are in top shape, and can think on your feet and are agressive, a go-getter and are willing to accept and share risk of injury or death, then don't hesitate: join the infantry.  I cannot stress enough that this isn't a job: it's a vocation, a calling.  If you aren't willing to sacrifice personal comfort for this vocation, then again, I cannot say it enough: don't waste my time.  Our Infantrymen deserve only the best, and if you can't be the best for them, then this vocation isn't for you.

Hmmmm.. doesn't sound too friendly to me! 

Any particular reason for posting this information? I'm assuming that you're trying to help aspiring junior officer candidates get ready for training this summer, and that you've seen some people come through who were not well prepared (personally or by the system) to succeed on the course.

 

[vonGarvin]

Hmmmm.. doesn't sound too friendly to me! 

Any particular reason for posting this information? I'm assuming that you're trying to help aspiring junior officer candidates get ready for training this summer, and that you've seen some people come through who were not well prepared (personally or by the system) to succeed on the course.

I say "friendly" because I'm trying to be nice to those who deserve it most: our infantrymen and those infantry officer candidates who want to lead them. 

But the reason was posted a bit earlier: many young lads have been sold a bill of good, or just didn't fully comprehend what it takes to be an infantry officer, and they take up space in the "system" from those who do want to be that.  That's all.


(ANd yes, helping those who want it, and clarifying what it is for those who aren't sure, or who have false ideas of what it means)