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Twice. Which led to fourteen posts about it.
Freedom Convoy protests [Split from All things 2019-nCoV]
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Jarnhamar
Army.ca Myth
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Speaking of actually dangerous people being overlooked, there's been an update in the platoon sized organized attacks out in BC in Feb.
Sorta.
Sorta.
Attacks ignite concerns that enviro-violence is returning to B.C.'s pipeline country
eliminator
Full Member
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WARMINGTON: Canada's top cop considered soldiers undercover as Mounties at Freedom Convoy
WARMINGTON: Canada's top cop considered soldiers undercover as Mounties at Freedom Convoy
The conversation between two of Canada's top cops was about an undercover police operation that would see soldiers disguised Mounties.
torontosun.com
"...I was thinking maybe we could use CAF but in our uniforms as unarmed Auxiliaries or Spl (special) Csts. (constables) to supplement us … in teams.”
"Section 282 of the National Defence Act states, “They shall act only as a military body and are individually liable to obey the orders of their superior officers” and “while acting in aid of the civil power, have and may exercise all of the powers and duties of constables but are not to be considered constables in the service of the civil authorities.”"
CAF wearing RCMP uniforms, operating as Auxilliaries or Spl Csts. Well that's an interesting concept...
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Remind me again how Lucki still has a job?WARMINGTON: Canada's top cop considered soldiers undercover as Mounties at Freedom Convoy
WARMINGTON: Canada's top cop considered soldiers undercover as Mounties at Freedom Convoy
The conversation between two of Canada's top cops was about an undercover police operation that would see soldiers disguised Mounties.
"...I was thinking maybe we could use CAF but in our uniforms as unarmed Auxiliaries or Spl (special) Csts. (constables) to supplement us … in teams.”
"Section 282 of the National Defence Act states, “They shall act only as a military body and are individually liable to obey the orders of their superior officers” and “while acting in aid of the civil power, have and may exercise all of the powers and duties of constables but are not to be considered constables in the service of the civil authorities.”"
CAF wearing RCMP uniforms, operating as Auxilliaries or Spl Csts. Well that's an interesting concept...
If I had ever ended up deployed for something like this, I wouldn't take any orders from the RCMP ever.
The last highlighted bit tells me I don't have to either.
Haggis
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Because she only considered it and did not act on it. I'm sure there were several good idea fairies circling her all the time.
Same as when we did the G8/G20 in Toronto. The troops were teamed up with civpol but took their tactical orders from the CAF leadership.
Yeah I see this more as brain storming ideas in an unprecedented situation.
I think if a plan had been drawn up and request made to make it happen then maybe this would be a different conversation.
But the uniform thing smacks of hiding the fact they were using CAF soldiers. That part is a little odd…
I think if a plan had been drawn up and request made to make it happen then maybe this would be a different conversation.
But the uniform thing smacks of hiding the fact they were using CAF soldiers. That part is a little odd…
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CAF members cannot be used as Constables in service of Civil Authorities. It's clearly laid out in the NDA so for Lucki to come out and use the word "Constable" is pretty stupid.
Agreed
But that's different from this situation. There are SOFAs for that sort of thing.
The only way this works IMO is if you bring the Armed Forces in as they did in the Oka Crisis and the Military takes over the operation.
The police can take their marching orders from us in that situation, not the other way around.
Maybe she isn’t that familiar with the NDA. I find that even in our own ranks people have a hard time interpreting some sections. Why would we expect someone outside the CAF to be educated on that? It’s not something I would imagine she would be familiar with beyond knowing that there is an act.
Are you tracking what the RCMP Act says about special constables or auxiliaries and how they can be appointed? Most people outside the RCMP probably are not. Maybe she thought she could use her authority based on what was in the RCMP act to make it happen. It was brainstorming ideas and I’d hardly consider her use of of the word « constable » as stupid. An idea that likely would have needed looking into and likely stopped if it had been looked at seriously.
There is a lot to criticize about all this but this is pretty minor.
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You think it's "A Minor Thing" that the HEAD of the RCMP is "just brainstorming" the use of Military Force in Canada and doesn't understand that CAF members cannot be considered Constables?
The worst part is she wasn't even brainstorming it with anyone from the CAF, rather another Police Officer, who thankfully cautioned her.
If she wants to brainstorm it with anyone, it should be with the CDS.
Yes I do think it was minor, Brainstorming and throwing ideas good and bad and looking at all available ideas and bouncing it off peers and colleagues. Some things get considered and some stay on the napkin and get trashed and don’t get considered.
Would you rather she operate alone and not consult? Thankfully she did and someone said « bad idea » maybe look at other options. And thankfully she did not approach the CDS with that idea.
I would assume she would be consulting the CDS after they would have a proposal or COA and discussed with her team. That never happened from what I can see so it wasn’t an idea that was taken seriously enough.
Indeed. It’s the Toronto Sun breathlessly reporting on a portion of an off the cuff idea. The author followed it to the point of quoting s. 282 NDA, which is a ‘pull’ from the province, but doesn’t appear to have considered 273.6(2) NDA, which is a ‘push’ from the feds:
Law enforcement assistance
273.6 (2) The Governor in Council, or the Minister on the request of the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness or any other Minister, may issue directions authorizing the Canadian Forces to provide assistance in respect of any law enforcement matter if the Governor in Council or the Minister, as the case may be, considers that
- (a) the assistance is in the national interest; and
- (b) the matter cannot be effectively dealt with except with the assistance of the Canadian Forces.
- - - - -
So, there are a couple different statutory authorities, neither of which the RCMP or OPP Commissioners were likely well acquainted with. Further, when she spoke of “Auxiliary Constables” and “Special Constables”, those are both terms with their own significance that are distinct from plain ‘constables’. I understand the terminology she was using, and this really looks like imprecise spitballing of ideas in a crisis. Contextually, this was Feb 13th, when the ‘what do we do?’ crisis was peaking just before Sloly’s resignation and the EA declaration. We already know that at this same time other levels of government had lost confidence in OPS and Sloly and that OPP were considering a move to take operational command.
It appears she was considering various/all options- it’s her job to at least think of what’s out there that can be lawfully used. It appears she briefly pondered the possibility of CAF being used as auxiliaries colocated with police officers; basically extra bodies for law enforcement tasks, which could potentially occur under 273.6(2), distinct from from the Aid of the Civil Power provisions.
The author, I believe, misinterpreted a quote: “Lucki texted: “Could you see a role for CAF in any of this… For example, after we secure and all is back to ‘normal,’ maybe keeping sites secure or patrolling unmanned POE’s (Public Order Emergency) etc.”
I suspect that POE in this context was actually "ports of entry", and that this means RCMP Commish was contemplating some role for CAF in securing unstaffed border crossings (there are lots). this suggests that this conversation was larger than just the Ottawa context.
Obviously nothing came of any of the musings about employing CAF, and I’m glad that’s the case. I don’t see anything here that would have been good ideas, but I don’t see much fault in two senior police privately bouncing off the wall ideas off each other in a crisis.
IKnowNothing
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I think it was moreso a failure in perspective.
On one hand you've got dingdongs with zero math skills or common sense taking pictures of lines of trucks, bustling parking lots, and crowded overpasses and claiming proof of tens of thousands of trucks with the support of the majority of Canadians.
On the other hand you have rational people doing the math, confirming that it's hundreds of trucks, laughing at the idiots that actually believed what was being said in the first hand. It was brutally obvious that Operation Bearhug was not the nationally supported revolution that it claimed to be, that they were going to fall far short of their stated goal of "choking out" the entire NCR until demands were met.
What the second hand failed to realize was that while the reality was miniscule in perspective relative to the claims and boasting, it was still actually a material movement with sufficient size, backing, and commitment to cause issues.
And regarding Sikh truckers in BC starting the whole thing- complete fabrication. BC truckers (heavily South Asian) happened to have an entirely separate protest convoy about working conditions and road safety right around time the Freedom one was spooling up. Between substandard reporting and active propaganda the two got associated.
daftandbarmy
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It's been well reported - with published sources - over these 277 pages that the South-Asian community - by and large - shunned the freedom community.
Freedom Convoy shunned by South Asian truck drivers
The conspicuous absence of South Asian truck drivers in the so-called Freedom Convoy that is protesting border vaccine mandates in Ottawa, is reflecti...www.thestar.com
“By and large…”
That doesn’t get to be used to zero them out…or does it?
Seems that “by and large” is a principle that is used or ignored depending on how it fits some one’s agenda…
• by and large, the protestors were white…
(IGNORE the inconvenient fact that some/a few/several/etc. of the originators and supporters were non-white, that’s against the desired narrative) CHECK
whilst…
• by and large, the protestors were peaceful…
(BUT BUT BUT, Nazis! Racists! The desired narrative of the country’s highest leader(s)) CHECK
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Well said.
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Well, we do know that the government currently is weak on countering eco-criminality…I mean when your environmental minister has a criminal record related to eco-demonstration, one could imagine how a mindset of tolerance against upscaled criminality could be viewed leniently…
Very definitely. The subsequent “rolling thunder” protest a couple months later was subject to very tight traffic control, and swift and decisive public order unit action when they tried to get stupid and blockade Rideau Street. Lessons from convoy were learned and implemented.And they learned alot of lessons for next time, right?
Regarding who was protesting: I can only speak firsthand to what I saw occupying Ottawa, but I’m stand my my earlier assertions: overwhelmingly if not quite exclusively white. The racial breakdown, IMHO, really doesn’t matter- I only mention. It because it’s apprently a factual bone of contention, so FWIW that’s my observation. As for “truckers”, I’ll take that to mean those economically dependent on driving trucks, or/or owning operating same. While there were a few of those on the ground, I’d estimate that they were a small minority of the occupiers and of those who took to the streets on foot, although they provided the physical kit (trucks) to allow the occupation to have disproportionate effect. Some truckers came out for a drive at the start, but most had to get back to work. The core ideological leaders or organizers, and their inner circle - Bauder, Lich, King, Marazzo, et al, were not truckers, but rather were familiar faces in anti-government protest circles. Whatever truckers may have started, they co-opted- and this was not the first convoy to Ottawa some were involved in.
What hit the ground and occupied Ottawa bore little resemblance to legitimate grievances held by long haul truckers. The occupation was mostly a varied and inchoate assembly of various groups with ideological affinity, catalyze by various pandemic related beliefs and opinions, and united(ish) by a desire to see the current government tossed out on its ass with or without an election.
daftandbarmy
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And just last week, in Smithers....
B.C. emergency vehicles torched in Smithers, police say: ‘This is an arson’
A number of RCMP and emergency vehicles were deliberately set on fire in a Smithers, B.C., hotel parking lot early Wednesday.
Extensive damage to a number of RCMP vehicles was shown on social media. BC Hydro confirmed one of its vehicles was also burned.
Smithers RCMP said officers received calls from the Smithers Fire Department for assistance around 4:30 a.m.
“The fire did not cause any damage to the hotel, however, eight vehicles, including four RCMP and one BC Ambulance were damaged or completely destroyed in the blaze,” said Smithers RCMP Cpl. Madonna Saunderson.
“This appears to be a targeted attack on emergency services vehicles. Preliminary investigation indicates this is an arson.”
B.C. emergency vehicles torched in Smithers, police say: ‘This is an arson’ | Globalnews.ca
Smithers RCMP is investigating what they believe to be a targeted arson attack that left eight emergency vehicles, including RCMP cruisers and an ambulance, badly damaged.
globalnews.ca
You’re super salty this morning. What’s up?
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