Freedom Convoy protests [Split from All things 2019-nCoV]

[brihard]

are we short police regularly? It doesnt seem that way to me at all?

Yes. Very. Across the board, and certainly including in Ottawa. But, for a major event or crisis, sufficient police can be brought to bear, albeit at the cost of leaving a lot of other things uncovered, and yes, that can include slower response times for emergencies. Obviously, a really big event means drawing on other police services, but that’s normal at least in the context of anticipated and planned security events.

While the convoy did necessitate bringing many more police into the city to clear out, those police did all exist already. The invocation of the EA didn’t suddenly knit a thousand more cops.

There is a difference between “having the people needed” and “using the people to get the job done”.

IMHO, the longer it was allowed to go on, the more police were ultimately needed for the clearing operation. A hard push to remove them at first light the Tuesday after they showed up would have looked different from what happened three weeks later starting on a Friday morning into a weekend. Even at that, the clearing of the occupation went much more smoothly than many expected. The crowd didn’t have the backbone or the fight in them that they presented themselves as having.

 

[QV]

Like others I was not in Ottawa. I do not think the EA was justified. I do think that there should be some mechanism by which the federal government can act when the province an police do not. I do think economics factor in.

Who decides the province or police are not doing enough? Someone like Trudeau?

 

[QV]

Even at that, the clearing of the occupation went much more smoothly than many expected. The crowd didn’t have the backbone or the fight in them that they presented themselves as having.

I imagine this anecdote supports the premise the convoy participants were not violent, did not intend any harm or violence, and were never a threat to national security.

Rather than just being cowardly, as you suggest.

 

[suffolkowner]

Who decides the province or police are not doing enough? Someone like Trudeau?

It would have to be, wouldnt it? I mean I would say the House of Commons instead of Trudeau

 

[suffolkowner]

It does to me. I had thousands of dollars worth of property stolen and received an email saying they may not even investigate, the report may just be used for statistics and trend tracking.

Ottawa has a very low police to population ratio, and it shows if you live in the right neighborhood.

Yes. Very. Across the board, and certainly including in Ottawa. But, for a major event or crisis, sufficient police can be brought to bear, albeit at the cost of leaving a lot of other things uncovered, and yes, that can include slower response times for emergencies. Obviously, a really big event means drawing on other police services, but that’s normal at least in the context of anticipated and planned security events.

While the convoy did necessitate bringing many more police into the city to clear out, those police did all exist already. The invocation of the EA didn’t suddenly knit a thousand more cops.

There is a difference between “having the people needed” and “using the people to get the job done”.

IMHO, the longer it was allowed to go on, the more police were ultimately needed for the clearing operation. A hard push to remove them at first light the Tuesday after they showed up would have looked different from what happened three weeks later starting on a Friday morning into a weekend. Even at that, the clearing of the occupation went much more smoothly than many expected. The crowd didn’t have the backbone or the fight in them that they presented themselves as having.

I live in the boonies. I've had things stolen before too and nothing ever happened except I got a number to give to the insurance. This has been true for me for decades. Maybe big cities need more cops I dont know but in the country I dont see how it would make a difference unless we actually have like 10% of the population patrolling the streets. They still seem to find cars to ticket speeders although that doesnt seem to be as prevalent as before Covid. I dont see how you can fund police or hospitals etc for these worst case scenarios although I guess it could be said we do it with fire departments

 

[brihard]

I imagine this anecdote supports the premise the convoy participants were not violent, did not intend any harm or violence, and were never a threat to national security.

Rather than just being cowardly, as you suggest.

I didn’t say cowardly; they simply failed to deliver what they promised. That could be for any number of reasons. On the contrary, it took considerable grit and determination to stick it out through the brutal, brutal cold on that last weekend. Fortunately the resolve of the crowd did not match up with the resolve of specific individuals. For myself, I’m happy - very happy - that it went better than it could have or was expected to, whatever the reason for that was.

I’m not opining on the degree of overall threat they presented. Nor will I make the mistake of putting much weight on hindsight when evaluating decisions made at a point in time where some things were known, some things were believed/perceived, and other things were not.

I continue to wait for the conclusion of the commission (it’s not done yet- numerous experts in various things being consulted this week) and then the eventual publication of a report of findings.

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

One of the things declaration of an Emergency does for the the local government is lift restriction on how they can spend money.

Heavy Snow fall and they need another road grader, they can buy one without having to tender and wait and see what the price is. They just buy it.


The EA would have some control about removing fiscal restraints so the Government can move faster and deploy assets quicker.
Need to move 500 police officers from BC to Ontario, here is the power to lease, or purchase tickets on commercial aircraft without having to put it out to tender or having to wait for the commercial carrier already under contract to have a plane available according to the schedule they are contracted to provide. EA or EP would give the police the funds to lease or contract for buses and tow trucks etc.
Had the EA and EP not been declared the OPS could be on the hook for everything and it would of eaten a huge hole in the budget of 350 million dollars.

I would have to deep dive on the EA and see how I would understand the funding side of the Act and the powers that go with it

 

[Halifax Tar]

It would have to be, wouldnt it? I mean I would say the House of Commons instead of Trudeau

only if it doesnt apply to firearms than its ok if the province says no. It is a slippery slope but I have confidence that we here and not the foolswe elect can figure it out

I think we are seeing now, WRT firearms, what happens when one portion of the country wants to impose its ideology and beliefs on another.

I like the idea of provinces having more say in what they will police. Regardless of what the feds think. I can also see that too is a slippery slope and fully admit my bias.

Perhaps we need some form of renegotiation of the confederation ?

 

[Navy_Pete]

Who decides the province or police are not doing enough? Someone like Trudeau?

Yes, that's part of being the Prime Minister, who is at the head of Cabinet and in overall control of the elected government. They are ultimately answerable to Canadians and Parliament, but our PM has a lot of autonomy if they choose to use it. Harper did frequently during Aghanistan.

I imagine this anecdote supports the premise the convoy participants were not violent, did not intend any harm or violence, and were never a threat to national security.

Rather than just being cowardly, as you suggest.

Some protestors were violent (like the security guard that got beat up) and others threatened direct violence, so there were a number of criminal investigations on the go. Given that 60ish% of our trade goes to the US, I'd definiytely say there are National security implications other than just physical attacks though.

 

[Remius]

I think we are seeing now, WRT firearms, what happens when one portion of the country wants to impose its ideology and beliefs on another.

I like the idea of provinces having more say in what they will police. Regardless of what the feds think. I can also see that too is a slippery slope and fully admit my bias.

Perhaps we need some form of renegotiation of the confederation ?

I think that would be the best fixes for firearms would be to devolve it to the provinces. Not sure how that would work legally or constitutionally but it could alleviate some of the political issues behind certain gun laws.

Or maybe set a threshold nationally and any province could then decide or not to go stricter if that is what they want.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Yes the Charter and Constitution should be updated but I will not hold my breath.
The EA was enacted by parliament. Was it though? Was it passed by the Senate? Did it need to be? GG signed? Im forgetting everything that happened

Yes, the EA was passed by parliament (back in 1988). As to the processes that were required on invoking the act and declaring an emergency, Parliament's part is mentioned here.

Government of Canada declaration of a public order emergency - Canada.ca

In order to declare a public order emergency, Canada’s <em>Emergencies Act</em> requires that there be an emergency that arises from threats to the security of Canada that are so serious as to be a national emergency.

www.canada.ca

The Government must table a motion for confirmation of a declaration of emergency in both the House of Commons and the Senate within seven sitting days after the declaration is issued. The motion must be tabled with an explanation of the reasons for issuing the declaration.

Motion for Confirmation of a Declaration of Emergency
That, pursuant to section 58 of the Emergencies Act, this House confirm the declaration of a public order emergency proclaimed on February 14, 2022.

How did the House and Senate respond? A reading of Hansard makes for good information and entertainment. The motion was tabled in the House on Thursday 17 February https://www.ourcommons.ca/DocumentViewer/en/44-1/house/sitting-33/hansard#Int-11530415 Debate continued until 2400 hrs and was adjourned till 0700 the next day for continuation.
Circumstances precluded the House meeting that following day (Friday 18 Feb) so debate recommenced on Saturday, 19 Feb. https://www.ourcommons.ca/DocumentViewer/en/44-1/house/sitting-34/hansard
Debate went into Sunday, 20 Feb. https://www.ourcommons.ca/DocumentViewer/en/44-1/house/sitting-35/hansard
And continued into Monday, 21 Feb when the motion was put to the vote and carried. https://www.ourcommons.ca/DocumentViewer/en/44-1/house/sitting-36/hansard#Int-11539446

The Senate did not spend as much time debating the Declaration of a Public Order Emergency. The motion was put to the Senate on Monday, 21 Feb. https://sencanada.ca/en/content/sen/chamber/441/debates/019db_2022-02-22-e
Debate was continued the next day, Tuesday 22 Feb, but the motion was withdrawn later in the day due to the revocation of the Public Order Emergency. https://sencanada.ca/en/content/sen/chamber/441/debates/020db_2022-02-23-e#9

 

[Kat Stevens]

Yes, that's part of being the Prime Minister, who is at the head of Cabinet and in overall control of the elected government. They are ultimately answerable to Canadians and Parliament, but our PM has a lot of autonomy if they choose to use it. Harper did frequently during Aghanistan.

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

They mattered, but it wasn't a threat to Canada.

Want to be mad, be mad the the provincial and municipal governments that didn't hire/retain enough police to do thr job.

I put the numbers out for the city of Ottawa, 2000 officers and staff, 343 million dollar budget for an area bigger than Toronto. The City of Ottawa has 3 major police forces and each with their own area of responsibility. When the GTA had the G7/G20 they also had to bring in Police from all over the country. Plus had federal troops in some areas. It was a preplanned movement of officers.
They had to steal police from other areas to look after the city of Ottawa
because some one dropped the ball and decided it was not going to last past a weekend. The Ottawa Valley tax payer pays extra for the OPP to Police the communities and they provide a highway patrol also. This protest had a ripple effect on police services across Ontario and across Canada. Officers came from every where to give assistance to Ottawa.

 

[Furniture]

I put the numbers out for the city of Ottawa, 2000 officers and staff, 343 million dollar budget for an area bigger than Toronto. The City of Ottawa has 3 major police forces and each with their own area of responsibility. When the GTA had the G7/G20 they also had to bring in Police from all over the country. Plus had federal troops in some areas. It was a preplanned movement of officers.
They had to steal police from other areas to look after the city of Ottawa
because some one dropped the ball and decided it was not going to last past a weekend. The Ottawa Valley tax payer pays extra for the OPP to Police the communities and they provide a highway patrol also. This protest had a ripple effect on police services across Ontario and across Canada. Officers came from every where to give assistance to Ottawa.

That does not change the fact that the protest was not a threat to Canada. Inconvenient, exposed a weakness in Canadian policing capacity, and expensive, but not a threat to the nation.

Enacting the EA because of bouncy castles, loud yahoos, and one minor assault sets a very low bar for future governments to "Whip out" their EA. Maybe next time a government does it, it won't be regarding a protest or issue you don't support.

 

[brihard]

Officers came from every where to give assistance to Ottawa.

Off the top of my head, Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Saskatoon, Sudbury, GTA, Quebec, I believe even some from Newfoundland. It was incredible, never seen anything like it.

But they are. Not liking how elections pan out does not illegitimate them as the ultimate accountability mechanism between an elected government and the body politic. The government shall, in fact, answer to Canadians at the next election. There will simply be a multitude of things Canadians are saying, and one way or another some will be disappointed by the outcome. Fortunately, in our system, they get to try again a few years hence, and then again after that.

 

[suffolkowner]

Off the top of my head, Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Saskatoon, Sudbury, GTA, Quebec, I believe even some from Newfoundland. It was incredible, never seen anything like it.



But they are. Not liking how elections pan out does not illegitimate them as the ultimate accountability mechanism between an elected government and the body politic. The government shall, in fact, answer to Canadians at the next election. There will simply be a multitude of things Canadians are saying, and one way or another some will be disappointed by the outcome. Fortunately, in our system, they get to try again a few years hence, and then again after that.

and amazingly enough people complain about having unnecessary elections and how much they cost

 

[Navy_Pete]

See @brihard above, but yup, they sure are. Maybe an effective opposition would be a start; when the alternative is still crap things are crappy either way, so it's more of a lesser evil choice.

So far Canadians continue to decide LPC under Trudeau is a lesser evil, and in provincial politics Conservative parties have more success by deliberately distancing themselves from the federal party, which worked in Ontario and Nova Scotia. If someone keeps beating you maybe doubling down on the current approach won't work?

Caption: Provincial conservatives to CPC

Anyway, the PM and Cabinet have a lot of autonomy if they choose to use it, and I think this one is probably politically a wash (regardless of what the inquiry finds). That's all built into the Constitution, laws and regulations of this country, and gives flexibility for when things hit the fan. I think I prefer the Westminster system to other forms of democracy which seem to just completely stagnate once they hit a certain size now that people seem to find it impossible to compromise politically and work together.

I'm personally happy with the general outcome of getting the protests cleared out, not okay with freezing accounts (which hasn't really been addressed in the inquiry unless I missed it), and think it could have been avoided if something had been done earlier. The EA was brought in with some specific limits, was closed off when things where done, and there is a public inquiry which has brought a lot more to light then I thought (like the PINs; that was unexpected).

Short term if Canadians don't like it it will get tracked in the opinion polls, longer term there is an election. If they do something popular/unpopular but still legal, what other recourse would you suggest?

 

[FSTO]

That does not change the fact that the protest was not a threat to Canada. Inconvenient, exposed a weakness in Canadian policing capacity, and expensive, but not a threat to the nation.

Enacting the EA because of bouncy castles, loud yahoos, and one minor assault sets a very low bar for future governments to "Whip out" their EA. Maybe next time a government does it, it won't be regarding a protest or issue you don't support.

Chantal Hébert continues to stress that all this support for the enacting the EA may open the door for a government that all these supporters don't like to enact it for railroad blockades or pipeline protests. Then what happens? When it's a group of annoying mainly white guys, folks don't mind if they get knocked around a bit. I'm pretty sure their tune will change if a group of POC's or left leaning white people get shoved around and arrested.

 

[mariomike]

Fortunately, in our system, they get to try again a few years hence, and then again after that.

Well said.

 

[FSTO]

and think it could have been avoided if something had been done earlier.

I've said this a dozen times now. What I saw on the TCH between Virden and Brandon MB were things I never saw with the Yellow Vests or the United We Roll movements. Cars and Trucks sitting on the approach roads to the highway with people cheering them on. There was palatable frustration and anger out there and this convoy was the manifestation of that feeling, and the federal governing party (that has no concept of the people who live outside of corporate law and high academia) did not take any opportunity to do some recon on these folks as they approached Ottawa. It's almost criminal that the national police force coupled with CSIS would not be able to have a clear picture of the movers in the convoy, where they were going and what they wanted to do by the time they got to Ottawa. Then not communicating to the OPS/OPP this info so that the two, at a minimum, plan to divert the heavy trucks from the downtown is head scratching.
Our leaders have this annoying habit of reacting to instead of getting ahead of an issue. Maybe they'll learn something from the convoy/occupation. Not holding my breath.