Fitness for Operational Requirements of CAF Employment ( FORCE )

[Poppa]

Were you told this at Asticou too? 

Veddy, veddy interesting ...

Yep...

 

[Jarnhamar]

I would guess that the reason the sandbag drag is an automatic fail if you drop it is in order to avoid arguments stemming from CF members dropping the bag over and over and over and struggling with it like a dog trying to hump a football.

The test already takes a really long time to administer, dealing with someone spending 15 minutes trying to drag the sandbag would waste everyones time. Worst still would be if it was in the hands of the PSP to arbitrarily decide when someone has dropped the sandbag "enough" in order to indicate they can't pass the test.

This way it's black and white.

If it was really supposed to be as close to real life as possible then I would just stand at the finish line screaming at the sandbags. 
Self aid! self aid! Crawl to safety man!

 

[armyvern]

Since the test is still "new" and failures can still do the EXPRES test, maybe they're varying the standards to see which ones they can raise without too many people failing?

I'd agree if that were the case across the board; what seems to be the case is that it appears that some PSP staff in Ottawa may be giving pers a second chance where anywhere else it would be a "fail" with no second chance.  That's two standards ---- something this test was supposed to eradicate.

So who's actually doing the standard FORCE test?  Pers in Ottawa being allowed retests or pers outside of Ottawa who are not?  It's hard to measure a standard and get stats if your stats from 1 location are "uncommon" and skewed from the get-go.

If a single pers in Ottawa has been allowed a retest for a non-retestable activity that has not been allowed elsewhere that is, quite simply, not on.  Some would also roll their eyes and note the location seemingly being treated "specially".  I truly hope that's not factual.

 

[smale436]

I did the FORCE test last week in Cold Lake. PSP was also briefing that the only portion that CANNOT be re-tried is the sandbag wall lift. Not only that, they were briefing that in FY 2013/14 as long as you have either FORCE or Expres passed by the end of the  FY earlier failed attempts would not be recorded or involve mandatory remedial PT. Basically, had I failed that morning (which I did not, nor did anyone else) I could have come back to the gym next week, next month or in a few months and either re-try FORCE multiple times or do the Expres. You were not forced to do Expres after failing FORCE on the first try. (I guess that all stems from this being a "trial year" for the new test) A person I know technically failed FORCE by being 2 seconds behind on the rushes on two attempts. They told him to just show up the following week and re-do it. Being on nights that day he didn't even bother going through ETO since PSP generally did not have accurate lists of who was booked for the tests. Hence there were always available spots.

 

[Infanteer]

The details that this was a trial year and CF Express/BFT still counted was in the CANFORGEN describing FORCE's introduction.

 

[birdgunnnersrule]

I just completed the test at Asticou and was very impressed by the professionalism of the PSP staff.  If memory serves as correct, we were briefed that you could have a second chance on the shuttle.  Maybe I had zoned out as the entire process seemed to take too long, but I assumed it was because the concrete floor was very slippery in locations.  No failures and no one seemed to have any difficulty with the exercises less the sandbag drag for those of smaller stature.  Agree with all the comments regarding standards across the different bases having recently been posted to Ottawa.  This is the first year and I am sure that there will be some adjustments for next year. 

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Wow.

Disparity on the first iteration.

Go figure. :


Guess PSP will have to put together one 'super team' to test every person in the CF to ensure standardization.

"It's January 2014, your test will be in the July- October timeframe of 2016. Get ready."

Or we can put it under the auspices of PLQ (PT) qualified Unit Cpl\MCpls with direction and supervision of the SSM\RSM, to ensure the standards are maintained.

There is no requirement, whatsoever, to have some civie from PSP administer this test.

The Forces is looking to save money. Time to let people we already pay for take care of this.

 

[armyvern]

...

Or we can put it under the auspices of PLQ (PT) qualified Unit Cpl\MCpls with direction and supervision of the SSM\RSM, to ensure the standards are maintained.

And our BFTA qualified pers too; I send many of my pers on that course to see them give warm-ups.  "Tis a sad state that we do not utilize our available and best resources to their full extent.

 

[dapaterson]

The intent is to have military pers apply the test within their own lines.  Two of three environments want to go that way.  Year 1, however, is to introduce the test and get some folks qualified to administer it.  Oddly enough, there's no "wave a magic wand and everyone is able to administer the test" wand available this year, so we have to rely on training them instead.

 

[caocao]

Sooooo, if I were a CWO in Ottawa, I'd be all over this.  Seems there may be a double standard happening at Asticou Centre (I love going on course there BTW) with their FORCE testing depending upon which PSP staff is fronting it that day.  The rules for retest that your boss got were correct.

I am now left wondering how many "passed" through on unallowed retests.

yeah, i will definitely have a chat with PSP when i get back from leave.  There has to be some uniformity applied across the country otherwise this year of stats gathering will have been all for nothing.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Wow.

Disparity on the first iteration.

Go figure. :


Guess PSP will have to put together one 'super team' to test every person in the CF to ensure standardization.

"It's January 2014, your test will be in the July- October timeframe of 2016. Get ready."

Or we can put it under the auspices of PLQ (PT) qualified Unit Cpl\MCpls with direction and supervision of the SSM\RSM, to ensure the standards are maintained.

There is no requirement, whatsoever, to have some civie from PSP administer this test.

The Forces is looking to save money. Time to let people we already pay for take care of this.

Just checking to see if one of the AAR points from the first year will be the apparent fact that we now have a basic fitness test so complicated to administer correctly that it takes a major training effort to achieve standardization?

 

[Navy_Pete]

I just completed the test at Asticou and was very impressed by the professionalism of the PSP staff.  If memory serves as correct, we were briefed that you could have a second chance on the shuttle.  Maybe I had zoned out as the entire process seemed to take too long, but I assumed it was because the concrete floor was very slippery in locations.  No failures and no one seemed to have any difficulty with the exercises less the sandbag drag for those of smaller stature.  Agree with all the comments regarding standards across the different bases having recently been posted to Ottawa.  This is the first year and I am sure that there will be some adjustments for next year.

I also just completed the test at Asticou and had the same experience.  They were pretty clear that the shuttle was the only one you could retest on; guessing if it wasn't being explained/applied properly it has since been corrected.  Seems like an easy misunderstanding to make.

Having said that, kind of surprised the sand bag drag wasn't a time limit instead of one continuous drag.  I think I'd rather be quickly dragged to safety with someone slipping a few times then have someone very slowly drag me over.  Would be annoying to slip on that one and fail the test because of it.

Wasn't a bad test; could conceivably sort of see doing similar things in the navy (although going twenty meters without hitting a hatch combing to lift someone over is extremely unlikely).  Sand bags were similar to storing/ammoing ship.  Don't know about the shuttle run with jazz hands , but Gilbert and Sullivan jokes aside, I guess it's a general quick twitch muscle test.

 

[smale436]

In terms of no time limit for the sandbag drag, PSP in Cold Lake was actually recording everyone's time to complete the drag. They informed us that they were recording the times (along with the gender and age of each participant) and forwarding the info to
Ottawa for analysis and to possibly use to create exemption times. (Exempt if all 4 events done in less than X amount of time) Not sure if this is happening elsewhere. For the record, I find the PSP staff in Cold Lake to be very good.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Having said that, kind of surprised the sand bag drag wasn't a time limit instead of one continuous drag.  I think I'd rather be quickly dragged to safety with someone slipping a few times then have someone very slowly drag me over.  Would be annoying to slip on that one and fail the test because of it.

Participants racing against the clock to complete the sandbag drag, especially if they are not used to that kind of stuff or very small, could probably injure themselves pretty good.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I suppose, although as the time limit for both the first two are extremely generous, there shouldn't be any particular rush. As the first two were basically to results based (ie get the task done in a time limit), the drag seemed a bit arbitrary to not be able to stop, but you can take as long as you want.  Mostly curious about the decision making process there.

Also, not sure if they did some testing on the actual gym floors before hand; Asticou had a bit of a texture as it was painted dimpled concrete and they used four sandbags, plus the one you were holding and a forty pound plate.  Was that the same everywhere else?  Only curious if they tested the friction coefficient, as this would be easier on a dusty and waxed tiled floor.  Is my nerd showing?

 

[krimynal]

I know there was suppose to have a website for that ( can't seem to find it on google ) there was also a quick movie , that was showing what it was really , that I can't seem to find neither !!!!!

does anyone have any link or whatever ??? I did a quick search but didn't find anything , I'll keep on looking those 23 pages , I saw the link of the USMC , but not the CF !

 

[armyvern]

I know there was suppose to have a website for that ( can't seem to find it on google ) there was also a quick movie , that was showing what it was really , that I can't seem to find neither !!!!!

does anyone have any link or whatever ??? I did a quick search but didn't find anything , I'll keep on looking those 23 pages , I saw the link of the USMC , but not the CF !

DFIT Website

 

[dapaterson]

Just checking to see if one of the AAR points from the first year will be the apparent fact that we now have a basic fitness test so complicated to administer correctly that it takes a major training effort to achieve standardization?

It's actually not very complex to administer, but they have to ensure a single standard - not "I want to be posted to 3 RCR from 1 RCR because they do the test easier over there".

 

[krimynal]

DFIT Website

if I'm not a reserve member right now can I still see it ????

I do have my last 4 digit of my SN ..... but I don't know if it's in the system as we speak


*EDIT*  Well I just answered myself , and no I can't create an account , since I'm not in the military right now ( havn't joined the reserve yet ) so I guess I'll have to wait till all the paperwork are done !!!

 

[JorgSlice]

if I'm not a reserver member right now can I still see it ????

I do have my last 4 digit of my SN ..... but I don't know if it's in the system as we speak

 

If you're not sworn member registered in HRMS, you will not be able to access.