Firing squad

[Royal605]

Hi, I just heard something that I was wondering if anyone could confirm for me is true or or just a myth. When they used to have firing squads, is it true that one rifle was always loaded with a blank? If so, does anyone know where this origianted from and why?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The story goes, that the members of the squad should not feel guilty, because no one could be 100% sure who fired the fatal shot.

 

[Long in the tooth]

Spoke with my father recently.  His Regiment was one of the last to actually have a member executed.  One rifle was empty (apparently) so that the members of the firing squad could say "it wasn't me".  True or not, just what I've been told.

 

[George Wallace]

That was so that the members of the Firing Squad would feel no remorse or guilt.  No one would know which was the blank, and each would then think that they could have had it.  

If you stop to think about it, that would mean that someone else would have to load their weapons for them.  If an individual on a Firing Squad was tasked with loading his own weapon, he would, as an experienced soldier, recognize a blank round.  [Edit to add:  If he had an empty rifle, he would easily recognize that when he fired.]

So following that further, perhaps there were no Blank rounds, as they would be difficult to hide or fabricate to look like real rounds, which would cause problems of another sort; and if you had poor shots, then you would be increasing your odds that the execution would not be 'clean'.   Perhaps, they lied and said there was a Blank, when there was none, just to remove the guilt of any member of the Firing Squad who had doubts of what he was doing.

Even in Aid the Civil Power, if the Riot Control Box that was deployed reached the stage of using 'Deadly Force', there was another member whose task it was was to go out and pick up all the casings ejected by the 'Riflemen'.  That way the 'Riflemen' would not have to.

 

[geo]

That was so that the members of the Firing Squad would feel no remorse or guilt.  No one would know which was the blank, and each would then think that they could have had it.  

If you stop to think about it, that would mean that someone else would have to load their weapons for them.  If an individual on a Firing Squad was tasked with loading his own weapon, he would, as an experienced soldier, recognize a blank round.  [Edit to add:  If he had an empty rifle, he would easily recognize that when he fired.]

So following that further, perhaps there were no Blank rounds, as they would be difficult to hide or fabricate to look like real rounds, which would cause problems of another sort; and if you had poor shots, then you would be increasing your odds that the execution would not be 'clean'.   Perhaps, they lied and said there was a Blank, when there was none, just to remove the guilt of any member of the Firing Squad who had doubts of what he was doing.

Even in Aid the Civil Power, if the Riot Control Box that was deployed reached the stage of using 'Deadly Force', there was another member whose task it was was to go out and pick up all the casings ejected by the 'Riflemen'.  That way the 'Riflemen' would not have to.

George,
the last time we employed firing squads, we were still using bolt action rifles.
so all you had to do was order the troops to leave their rifles with a Sgt.
Said Sgt could have sufficient number of rounds + 1 blank for all the rifles. & randomly lioad the blank round into someone's rifle - without necessarily knowing who's rifle the blank went into.
Troops would know that they had 1 round up the spout when the rifle was given back to them - and from the rim end, blank & live look pert much the same.
After the volley is fired, rifles are returned to an NCO who looks after the task of recovering spent casings....

You can have a certain amount of anonimity &"who, me?" factor with the old bolt action rifles... but all bets are off with self loading rifles.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

You can have a certain amount of anonimity &"who, me?" factor with the old bolt action rifles... but all bets are off with self loading rifles.

How so? You march up to the firing point with weapons already there, magazines in and upon given the order to chamber a round, you do so. I think there would be just as much anonymity there as well.

 

[geo]

true but, when you fire off your blank and the action stays forward.... you're pert certain who fired the blank

Else, the BFA is a dead give away

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Touche

 

[geo]

years ago, with the C1, you could put the gass regulator to 0 and all the actions would stay forward but, you don't have that option with the new generation of service rifle.

 

[Long in the tooth]

Guys, any soldier worth his salt would know if he actually fired or not.  The intent was to provide what we now call 'plausible deniablity' after the fact.

 

[geo]

Otto... I know that.  but if you have a breach or ejection port that stays shut when it should be open, then you have an obvious telltale.  With a bolt actioned rifle, you don't have that problem.

Let's face it, the idea is that everyone in the firing party would go through the motions asked of them AND, at the ultimate moment when you pull the trigger, you are expecting a wee little hole to appear on the target at your front.

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

from what  i watched on a tv movie about the last soldier excuted by  firing squad. i cannot remember if it was a US or British soldier, the weapons were boolt action,  preloaded , and cocked by  a  SNR NCO, and one blank round was used. from what  i have read modern excuttions using other forms like the needle uses the blank round idea, one plunger has nothing it but saline solution so the persons doing the pluging of the needles into the iv line do not know who has the life ending doses.

the blank round is used mostly  so  a soldier can have a less guilty  life after the task, he can think he did not do the killing of his follow soldier. but i am sure any  soldier who has used his weapon with live rounds can tell by  the sound of the shot and the recoil if he hada  live round or not.

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

i did some research on the last Canadian executed by  firing squad , it was during WW2 and he is a few links with info on how it was done and why
http://ottsun.canoe.ca/News/Columnists/MacAdam_Pat/2007/04/29/pf-4138751.html
two blank rounds were used for this tasking.

   
April 29, 2007
Death by diplomacy
Private's case begs for pardon
By Pat MacAdam

Harold Joseph (Joe) Pringle was a 23-year old private in the Hastings and Prince Edward Regiment (the Hasty Ps) when his bullet-riddled corpse was buried in a British military cemetery in Caserta, Italy, on July 5, 1945.

Earlier in the day, at 7:58 a.m., Pringle suffered "death by shooting" from the rifles of marksmen from his own regiment.

Joe Pringle was the last Canadian casualty of World War II. He was the only Canadian to be shot by firing squad and the last soldier executed by the Canadian army.

Fifty-five years later, in November 2000, Pringle's grave had its first visitor. Journalist and documentary filmmaker Andrew Clark placed a bunch of lilies on Pringle's final resting place. Two years later, Clark wrote A Keen Soldier: The Execution of Second World War Private Harold Pringle -- a best-selling book based on hitherto secret files housed in the National Archives.

Joe Pringle's execution was shrouded in secrecy. A 40-year embargo had been placed on any and all details.

Prime Minister Mackenzie King was between a rock and a hard place. His government held 184 seats in a 245-seat House and was facing an election on June 20. If news of Pringle's execution got out it might have resulted in defeat for the King government.

King's government lost 59 seats but formed a slim majority with 125 seats to the Opposition's 120.

The PM was apoplectic when he learned that the Hasty Ps intended to repatriate Pringle to England with the rest of his regiment. He ordered that Pringle remain in northern Italy and a curtain of silence be lowered on the entire matter.

Pringle and two British servicemen, Petty Officer Bill Croft and sapper Charlie Honess, were accused of murdering Cape Breton Highlander "Lucky" MacGillivray in a drunken confrontation.

Honess and MacGillivray argued and Honess shot "Lucky" in the liver. Pathologists testified that the wound could have brought death on in 10-15 minutes.

Look like 'hit'

Pringle and Croft were in another part of their Rome apartment when they heard the shot. Pringle wanted to take "Lucky" to a hospital.

Honess and Croft told Pringle MacGillivray was already dead. So they bundled him in a Jeep and drove to a secluded country road. They dumped MacGillivray's body in ditch, firing pistol rounds into "Lucky's" head and chest to make identification difficult or to make it appear it was a Mafia "hit."

MacGillivray, Pringle, Honess, Croft and two U.S. soldiers had linked up in Rome to form the Sailor Gang. Petty Officer Croft was the sailor.

Rome was an open city, wide-open, lawless and teeming with Allied servicemen who had deserted or were AWOL. The Sailor Gang piled up enormous profits in theft and the black market. A set of tires removed from a parked Jeep could bring $700 US.

Anything was available for a price if you had American currency. It has been suggested that, you could commission a U.S. Special Forces' deserter to creep into the Vatican and steal the Pope's ring from his finger while the pontiff slept.

Other gangs were active in prostitution, counterfeiting Italian currency, home invasions and burglaries, hijacking lorry loads of olive oil and even robbing the odd train.

Joe Pringle lied about his age to enlist. On Feb. 5, 1940, he left the family farm in Flinton, just off Hwy. 7 north of Kaladar. He was 16 years old.

He was not a model soldier. He was convicted of being AWOL four times, once for 164 days. He disappeared from his regiment for three months and this brought on six months in Britain's toughest military prison.

It was there that Pringle and MacGillivray became friends.

Pringle's court martial has been described as a few notches down from a law school moot court.

Pringle's defence was that "Lucky" was already dead when he fired two shots into his chest and head.

He was sentenced to death. His appeal was denied.

In Ottawa on June 20, election day, the governor general, Major General the Earl of Athlone, approved Privy Council Order-in-Council #4418 signed by Veterans Affairs Minister Ian Mackenzie. The death sentence was confirmed.

Did Mackenzie King have a choice? Croft and Honess had already been executed. Would it cause a diplomatic rift between Britain and Canada if Canada commuted Pringle's sentence?

At 7.40 a.m., June 5, Private Joe Pringle was led from his holding cell in the village of Avellino. He was driven to le Breccielle (broken ground) where the Mussolini Youth Party once had a rifle range.

Ten soldiers from the Hasty Ps were lined up in two ranks.

Eight of the .303 rifles had live rounds chambered; two rifles were loaded with Balisite cartridges (crimped, blank rounds).

Pringle was tied to a post and blindfolded. The commands to the firing squad were silent. The last command -- Fire -- was an audible command from the officer-in-charge.

The copper-jacketed .303 rounds hit Pringle in the chest. He died instantly. The bullets probably reached him before the sound of rifle fire did.

Joe Pringle's death cries out for justice -- for a judicial review. A pardon would be insufficient.


http://www.randomhouse.ca/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780676973556
this a book about the soldier

 

[1feral1]

Guys, any soldier worth his salt would know if he actually fired or not.  The intent was to provide what we now call 'plausible deniablity' after the fact.

Exactly, Newton's Law. 'For every reaction, there is an equal and opposit one.' Its called recoil.

You bet you'd bloody know if it was a blank or ball rd.

I think its an urban myth.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[tomahawk6]

Here is a 1947 manual of execution. Section 13 discusses the duties of the officer charged with conducting the execution. It states that no less than 1 and no more than 3 rifles will be loaded with a blank.

http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/pdf/procedure_dec-1947.pdf

 

[1feral1]

Thats a US manual, anything commonwealth out there??

Cheers,

Wes

 

[geo]

Hmmm... interesting - The US military would have a marching band playing ?

Whoa! - PT Barnum musta had a hand in this TM

 

[tomahawk6]

In the photo archive of ushmm is an image of a US Army execution of a murderer.

http://www.ushmm.org/uia-cgi/uia_doc/photos/11785?hr=null

 

[jimb]

In the early 1970's, the CBC TV  drama department did a fictionalised version of the case of Private  Pringle of the hasty P's. I was an extra, along with probably 25 other members of the 48th Highlanders. The film was shot at a location just north of  Toronto, at a closed down juvenile jail, which I think was known as the "House of Concord ".  It had  actual jail  cells and  a court room, as well as lots of room to do outside scenes.

We were chosen because we all had been isuued with WW2 battle dress uniforms at Moss Park and therfore the costume department only had to sew on "phony shoulder titles " and 1st Caninfdiv red  colour patches. I was a bit older than the rest and was picked to be the "Padre " in a few scenes. The actor that played the "condemed man " was one of the two who were in the 1970 film  " Goin Down The Road ".  Other leads were  the french giuy ( Keir Duleay ? )  from the movie "Space Odessy ". and Lloyd Bockner.

The Director had actually been a Canadian Army  WO 1,  in WW2 and had served in Italy, so he knew what he wanted things to look like. I watched the production when it played on CBC TV but it was never issued as a video, to my knowledge.

In my opinion, the man who was tried, found guilty condemed and shot , was fully guilty and got what he deserved. Remember that at that time, those who were  convicted of  murder in Canada were subject to  execution by hanging, in civil trials. Most people today have no idea about the AWOL criminal gangs in Italy, who were made up of Allied military members who had  decided to walk away from their units.

Not every guy in uniform was a hero, some were criminals, otherwise why did we have  " glass houses " ?

Jim B. Toronto.