FELEX - Halifax Class Modernisation

[Ex-Dragoon]

I agree, and that's why I said the ship would be fine as long as someone isn't shooting at it.

If someone is shooting at it, that FC system is going to become very important, and it's going to have significant issues with some medium threats or all high threats.

Thats why we travel in a TG so other ships can assist when needed. Somedays someone will realize we need a combat system like Aegis.

 

[Harley Sailor]

Have either of you ever taken the CPF or TRUMP fire control course? Or done any OJT on the CPF or TRUMP FC systems?

Well, let me think back, I've been with the CPF project since 1989.  At the moment I am instructing CPF weapon systems.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

Well, let me think back, I've been with the CPF project since 1989.  At the moment I am instructing CPF weapon systems.

OK. Then you know why the CPF is limited to 2 simultaneous engagements? (Not counting the CIWS)

 

[aesop081]

Freindly OPSEC reminder.....

Milnet.ca staff

 

[Harley Sailor]

OK. Then you know why the CPF is limited to 2 simultaneous engagements? (Not counting the CIWS)

Again you need to look at the role of the CPF before talking about it's defence. 

You need to ask why would a CPF be under attack from multi threat. Does the enemy usually attack a patrol ship or the main body.  That would be like using your team to take out the recon team and giving your position away.  Don't you try to slip by the patrols to attack the main body.

 

[Good2Golf]

..heck, he even questions whether they could operate in a low threat environment without upgrade:

I'm not questioning it. I'm stating flat out that it won't be able to operate in a low threat environment unless it's upgraded.

A self-acknowledged "flat out" statement by you, followed a few lines later by this question of yours in response to my statement...

Perhaps I'm right out of her, and FELEX will truly not be capable of operating in anything but a low-threat environment when the upgrades are complete?

A FELEX FFH should be able to operate in most medium threat environments as near as I can tell. Where are you getting the low-threat after upgrade thing?

Ummmm....the answer to your question in the second highlighted text, is your response to my query in the first highlighted text.  I'm getting the "low-threat after upgrade" bit directly from you.  That is what you're asking me in the second highlight, right?  ???

I'm now losing the bubble...what is your position on low-threat after upgrade?

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

I'm getting the "low-threat after upgrade" bit directly from you.

No, I said it won't be able to operate in a low threat environment unless it's upgraded. I said it would be able to operate in a low to medium threat environment once it's upgraded.

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

drunknsubmrnr,

A quick favour....without getting into too much OPSEC stuff on FELEX, can you elaborate on what enemy systems you believe contribute to a "High Threat Environment", and which systems on other naval platforms are required to neutralize/eliminate those threats.


Many thanks in advance,  Matthew. 

 

[Grizzly]

Was the Halifax class EVER designed to fight in high threat engagements by itself? I had assumed that in any real shooting war that the Halifax's would have to be grouped with a Tribal class in order to grant the task group sufficient area defense. From what I understood, the Halifax has good short range defense systems but can't really deal with a high saturation attack by itself. Am I wrong? Would FELEX change this?

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

A quick favour....without getting into too much OPSEC stuff on FELEX, can you elaborate on what enemy systems you believe contribute to a "High Threat Environment", and which systems on other naval platforms are required to neutralize/eliminate those threats.

Without getting into specifics, there have been a lot of supersonic systems developed in the last few years. There have also been a lot of the older subsonic systems built. A "High Threat" environment would involve a lot of the newer systems, although you could also have more of the older systems.

Other navies have developed systems like the APAR/SM-2 or the Herakles/Aster systems to deal with large numbers of high-speed missiles. The USN Aegis system has also been adapted for smaller ships.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

Was the Halifax class EVER designed to fight in high threat engagements by itself? I had assumed that in any real shooting war that the Halifax's would have to be grouped with a Tribal class in order to grant the task group sufficient area defense. From what I understood, the Halifax has good short range defense systems but can't really deal with a high saturation attack by itself. Am I wrong? Would FELEX change this?

The Halifax was meant to be deployed into high threat areas in conjunction with TRUMPs. However, that was back in the early 80's. The threats have developed enough since then that being deployed with an AAW ship isn't enough any more. AAW ships have issues of their own in dealing with threats against ships that they aren't directly guarding. Normally there are only enough AAW ships to guard the high value units, not the frigates.

FELEX should help with saturation attacks, but it's not going to be more than an incremental improvement. Everyone else has gone to major improvements through new systems and ships.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

When you say the FELEX ships won't be able to operate in a high-threat environment, is that "high-threat" as defined in any referenced contemporary and/or future security environment?

Apparently the CF version is "Threat to Canada's Maritime Forces - A Look to 2025". As referenced in section 2.3.1.1 of the JSS SOR.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Start of major piece in Defense Industry Daily:

Modernizing Canada’s Halifax Class Frigates 
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Modernizing-Canadas-Halifax-Class-Frigates-05062/

Launched between 1988-1995, and commissioned between 1992-1996, Canada’s 12 City Class (now Halifax Class) frigates currently form the high end of its naval capabilities. The Canadian Navy has declined drastically from its post-WWII status as the world’s 4th largest navy, and the Halifax Class itself is finding that its open-ocean design is not suited to cope with modern littoral threats and improving anti-ship missiles. Replacement vessels are still many years away, which means that the 4,750t frigates will need to be modernized within the limits of their design if they are to remain effective.

Canada’s government has decided to fund that modernization, much as Australia and New Zealand are modernizing the Halifax Class’ ANZAC Frigate contemporaries. Refits are scheduled to begin with HMCS Halifax in 2010, and that ship is scheduled to re-enter service about 18 months later in 2012. By 2017, all 12 frigates are scheduled to be upgraded as part of a C$ 3.1 billion (about $2.9 billion) program. This DII Spotlight article explains the scope of the upgrades, notes the current systems, and covers the contracts and developments involved…

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Pat in Halifax]

I am disappointed I missed this thread first time around - looked like a good old fashioned street brawl in the makings! For anyone who cares, with the exception of monitoring, the MSE changes incorporated into HCM/FELEX are SQUAT. I suppose we are holding our own wrt the first 2 of Float, Move, Fight!!

 

[STONEY]

One thing i've noticed in all the discussion of Felex  update is NO discussion at all of anti-submarine at all.
Have subs dissappeared from the equation alltogether.  Is the Halifax class soldiering on with sonar that was onboard
modernized Restigouche class ships 30 years ago or was a new HMS installed that i missed or has CANTASS replaced HMS.

 

[aesop081]

or has CANTASS replaced HMS.

If thats the case, we're truely screwed for the future.

 

[Occam]

If thats the case, we're truely screwed for the future.

Care to elaborate?  You can't be suggesting that we go pinging active sonar all the time...CANTASS was pretty good the last time I saw it used, and I can only assume it's improved since then.

 

[aesop081]

Care to elaborate?

I'm afraid that i cant elaborate without going into things that dont belong in an open forum. I'm sure you understand.

That being said, the days of passive tracking are almost at an end. Get used to active and new technologies.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Modernizing-Canadas-Halifax-Class-Frigates-05062/

does not look like any updates or upgrades to either the CANTASS or HMS.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

Is the Halifax class soldiering on with sonar that was onboard
modernized Restigouche class ships 30 years ago or was a new HMS installed that i missed or has CANTASS replaced HMS.

I'm pretty sure the IRE's never had SQS-510 in either HMS or VDS. They definitely didn't have the -510 in 1980.

An active towed array was considered for FELEX but dropped on cost.

FELEX is focussed on replacing kit that is no longer industrially supportable with equivalents that are supportable. For the most part, the ships after FELEX won't be able to do much more than a current City class can do, they'll just be able to do it more reliably.