Gunner, I gathered my info freom this interview. Slightly lengthy read, but interesting nonetheless.
Ed George - The man who supervised Charles Manson's incarceration for 8 years talks about Manson's life in prison.
ctv_will: Welcome to Court TV and Yahoo! Chat We're going to be talking today to Ed George. Mr. George spent 32 years involved in the corrections system in this country, and 8 of those years were spent supervising the incarceration of Charles Manson. He has a book out called Taming of the Beast, describing his experiences with Manson. I'm about halfway through the book, and it's very interesting.
Mr. George can talk about what make Manson tick, what he's really like, what effect the system has had on Manson, the book has a really disturbing section on prison weapons, so maybe our guest will talk about that. This week marks the 30th anniversary of the Tate/LaBianca murders. Our guest Ed George has some very interesting insight into why those muders happened.
Many times he almost let Manson into his head. In addition to having so many things to say about Charles Manson, Our guest tonight has been in the corrections field for a long time and I'm sure can answer many questions about prisons and reform and what it's really like in America's prisons.
Mr. George has a way of making Manson seem more human than we're used to see him as, and also more sane.
I've got Ed George here now. Welcome Mr. George.
CheeseLovingMonkey asks: How long have you been doing what you do?
Ed George: I started in the priesthood for 5 1/2 years, and then I was a pilot in the Navy. When I got out I became a social worker for a couple years, then I ws a cop for a couple years, then I got into corrections. I was assigned to San Quentin working withthe maximum security inmates. I was working with the most dangerous inmates in the correctional system at that time. Then I worked up through the ranks to program administrator and eventually returned to San Quentin in 1975 in charge of death row and the maximum security facilities. That was when I met Charles Manson. From then to the present I have kept tabs on him. I actually saw him on an almost daily basis for almost 8 years. And I had many hours of interviews wiyth him over that period. In 1985 he was transfered out of my supervision and I didn't renew my relationship with him until I started writing this book in 1995 when I was visiting him at the Corcoran State Prison where he is being kept now.
daisypusher23 asks: Why is Manson in prison if he didn't actually kill anyone?
Ed George: Because he orchestrated the murders. He was convicted of conspiracy to murder, meaning that he was involved in the planning of the murders, and during the trials he was tied into the murders as the main orchestrator, and the one with the motive.
reallifelover asks: helo what kind of working ralationship did you have with manson?
Ed George: I was very enamored with his person becuase of his social skills. The way he was able to present himself and argue his innocence in a very persistent way with great charisma and animation-- more so than anyone that I had met in the prison system up to that time or since and I said "Wow, this guy has really got a tremendous power to motivate and convert," and I was really knocked off my feet by this guy. From that time I went after everything I could find out about him, what he did, his behavior, how he dealt with my staff, what he did in his cell, his different abilities, to write, songs, play guitar, other artwork-- like he used to do these spacial abstracts using bits of things --very creative--he'd make voodoo dolls out of unraveled socks and sweaters. I censored most of his mail, so I got to read it and read what the Manson family was sending to him, so I really got to look into his brain and see how he works. It all fascinated me, that he could do all of this, so I sort of befriended him. I did that to get along with him and manage him, because he could be a very beligerant person, making threats, agitating other inmates, burning his cell, flooding his cell. He looked at me as his administrator, and his counsellor. We'd just talk for an hour or so at a time about life and his philosophy. He tried to run his game on me and try to convert me to his family. That was kind of amusing to me from what I knew about his background but he'd still go for it and try to sell himself. There was never a dull moment when he was around. He could be very disruptive, get the other inmates riled up. He could manipulate the system better than anyone else on both sides of the bars. He was good at getting what he wanted, if not from me, then he'd go to someone else in the system. If I'd say no to him, lo and behold he'd have it in his cell in a week or so anyway.
reallifelover asks: is it true that when manson sent the "family" to the mansion it was not to murder it was to rob the residents?
Ed George: No, it was to murder. They never did steal anything.
They took some things out at LaBianca, but as far as I know, nothing was missing from the Tate murders.
cool_customer_99 asks: Why is everyone afraid of an old man?
Ed George: It's not Manson that they're afraid of, it's the people that follow him. There are a lot of nuts out there and there are a lot of people who see him as a divine prophet. So it's his ability to go outside the walls even though he's inside the walls and tell people to do things. This is very hard to keep track of, but there are many cases where things happened on the outside that are traced to Manson even though he was in prison. Manson loves to threaten poeople and he can say it so convincingly that he holds fear over the person. There is always the possibility that someone out there is going to hear that he wants this person killed and in order to get in his good graces, they go out and do it. The funny thing about this is that when I would bring things like that up to him, he would just give me a devilish smile. He wouldn't admit to anything, he would just give me an evil, all knowing look. He liked you to think that he had this power. Somethings he tried to take credit for I don't think he had anything to do with, but the effect is that everyone from the prison guards to the inmates start to believe that he has this power, and that is the scary part.
ajc1001 asks: Does he see or receive many visitors that he knows personally?
Ed George: Not a lot of people, but he has a certain few regular visitors. One is George Steinsom, he's the one who keeps his website up, and it's a very interesting website to say the least. He has a few women visitors who come, a couple fly from Missouri to see him. I was going to see him recently, and my buddy at the prison told me not to see him on Sunday becuase he had two women visitors on Sunday. I think those are new followers.
MECHWARROIR asks: Does Manson have many folowers today?
Ed George: I think very close followers he has very few, but he has a lot of wannabe members who write letters and tell him they want to join and tell him "I love you" and ask what he wants them to do. A lot of them are teenagers and young adults,and more women than men.
ajc1001 asks: how much mail does he receive?
Ed George: I've heard that the average is about 4 letters a day. He gets them from Europe, the US, Canada, Puerto Rico, all over the place. He has this fascination with people who are into true crime.
ctv_will: Does he get satisfaction from knowing that he's still in the public eye?
Ed George: He loves it. Since he was a little kid in juvenile hall and reformatory, the counsellors said he always had a need for attention. He still has that today. that is his immediate image, that he likes it, he enjoys it. But his image that he has in prison is different than his image in the public. Becuase in the book I refer to him a couple places like he was getting forced to have sex, like when he was on death row. He was so angry with me for putting that in the book. He said, "You're making a punk out of me, all of the sex I had there was consentual." That was a big concern of his because that's his image in prison that I was talking about. He told me that he didn't mind if I wrote a book about him, but "don't front me off." Apparenty he got really mad a me. He used to call me here at home, but he hasn't in a couple months becuase of that. He wanted me to change it in the paperback, but I told him that I had a good source on that information, and I felt that that was worthy of citing becuase it makes him more human. And he definitely doesn't like that. If he submited to someone who was pressuring him, that makes him look weaker. Anything that messes with his image, he get's upset with.
sensualpaul98 asks: I liked the Charlie song on Guns and Roses last album, does that make me a bad person?
ctv_will: What do you think of people who are interested in famous criminals? Ed George: I don't think there's anything wrong with liking his music. He's got some pretty good songs and he's a good singer. He has a good voice, I've heard him in his cell. He has a texas kind of accent. He reminds me of Willie Nelson or Chris Christoferson. He goes along and he's pretty good. Manson is not a serial killer, he didn't really get satisfaction that way, not like Dahmer or Son of Sam or something like that. I think Charlie had a motive, there are several motives out there, why he sent his family to kill these people. To us the killings look senseless, but there are motivations there. I think people that are into serial murderers are sort of sick, but they are fascinating people, and I guess that's where I shouldn't criticize.
vicster99 asks: They released one girl...the one in New Hampshire...does she keep in contact with him?
Ed George: Sandra Goode was paroled in the early 90's and has since come out to California. She stays around there, but she's never been allowed to visit becuase of her record.
sheldons40 asks: What does that "front me off" mean
Ed George: It means to tell something about him that will make him look less in the eyes of the inmates-- like less of a man. Machoism is very important in prison. If it appears that you're weak, or a punk (used sexually), or that you're afraid, or that you're in lock-up so that you don't have to face someone.... It's like being a snitch, running to the officer so that you will be taken off the line so that you won't be killed. To say somehting like that about someone in prison makes him look really bad to the other inmates. No one wants to get "fronted off" especailly when it's true.
ctv_will: Is your book widely read in prison?
Ed George: I don't think so. Actually, they barred it from Corcoran when it first came out becuase they thought I said some things that would get people hurt. Old stuff, but sometimes in prison stuff like that pops up again. A prisoner might learn something about what happened to him a long time ago, or it might contradict an administrator's explanation of what had happened. I made very careful sure that wouldn't happen, I used nicknames to make sure no one was put in danger.
natasha2u2 asks: Has Manson ever exhibited any sign of remorse?
Ed George: No, not at all. In fact, he justifies the murders. To me he would say, "Those people deserved to die," and I would get angry at him and ask him why, and he would run off all these things that he said they were doing: drugs, pornos, ruining the environment, worshipping the devil... The paradox here was that he and the family were doing the same things that he says they were doing! Sex, drugs, and a lot of the same thing, so it didn't really make sense. Manson also took the environmental issues of the day and brought those into his reasons for the murders which is sort of an after-the-fact justification, but it was a cause that he picked up on and it was a rationalizaiton that he would use. He said people were raping the forest and ruining the environment to build big houses, and using the water to fill their pools. He has a whole nature rap that he worked in later in his life. I don't really buy into it much, it still is not a good reason to go murdering people, to go on a spree like that.
sara_canada asks: do you think manson is still a danger to society?
Ed George: Only the way I was saying earlier in that it's not that he would be physically threatening, but his power to control people is still there. He still has charisma and energy and ability to manipulate. I know that he has a lot of rage for being convicted. He claims that he is innocent becuase he didn't physically kill anyone. He'll probably be saying that until he dies. He's correct in that he didn't do the actual killing, but conspiracy law covers his crime. So yes, I feel he is still dangerous.
sheldons40 asks: What are the chances he'll be released?
Ed George: Legally he has to come up for parole once every five years, but the chances of him coming out of parole are nill. He'll be 65 on Nov.12th of this year, and I expect he'll die in prison.
daisypusher23 asks: How come no one ever tried to kill Manson in prison?
Ed George: Good question! We protected him. We protected him ever since he got to San Quentin becuase we knew that becuase of his crime there were people who would want to kill him. I'm sure there are people in the prison who would want to kill him if they could get to him. that's why he's a protective custody case, becuase the law says we have to protect our inmates. Not because he asked for protection, but becuase we know there are people out there who want him dead.
ctv_will: Wasn't there a story about someone smashing his guitar not long ago?
Ed George: Yep. What happened was that they have exercise yards for his area and another area next to each other. Someone left the gate between the two yards open, and the other inmates hate the people in protective custody and they'll kill them if they get the chance- just becuase they're in there. Becuase most of them are snitches and punks and they've asked for protection. The security houses hold the active people who are bad and threatening, and the protective custody yard holds the people who are being protected from them. So they broke through they gate between the two areas, and one guy who had been holding Manson's guitar tuning it, had it smashed over his head. Manson didn't get roughed up becuase I think they knew he wasn't in there for being a snitch, but the other guys got hurt pretty bad. Manson was really mad at the guy who was holding it when it got smashed. He says the guitar is worth $5000 and he wants the state to pay for it. I don't know what's going ot happen with that.
sara_canada asks: does he have cell mates?
Ed George: No. He's by himself.
redwizard_001 asks: The title says "Taming the Beast" - has he really been tamed?
Ed George: No, that was my publishers choice. I had a couple other names that they didn't like so they went with a head turning title. He's about the same person he was when he came in, only older. He really hasn't changed. He doesn't let therapists into his mind, he tells them they should listen to him. He makes up his own mind and doesn't let people tell him what to do. he has his own system of morals--which are mostly amoral.
etmom6 asks: at his recent parole hearing he looks very healthy..does he have any health problems
Ed George: No he doesn't. Years ago some doctor told me that he found a spot on his lung and that it would develop into cancer, but that was 25 years ago, so I guess his system was strong enough to take care of that. Every time I see him, he is sharp and strong, and he get's lots of sun. In one photo in the book I'm standing behind him, and he looks like he's been to Florida and I've been to Alaska. That's becuase he get's out in the exercise yard and get's all that sunshine. People ask me about that all the time.
redwizard_001 asks: I'm curious as to whether or not he's taken up a "niche" in jail. You know - some find Christ - others study law.
etmom6 asks: Is there any evidence he has this control over any inmates that are being released
Ed George: There have been some cases where people became disciples while they were in prison and they wrote to him after they got out and they even came back to visit him. When we had him on the main line, for about a year and a half, off and on, a lot of people did want to listen to him and gravitate toward him. We had to watch that really close and when it got out of hand we put a stop to it. He did have some close friends, usually hippy type people who were into music and drugs. Most of the gangland inmates didn't have anything to do with him, like the Mexican Mafia, or the Black Guerilla Family, and the Aryan Brotherhood. They didn't have anything to do with him. ctv_will: Just like Oz.
Ed George: Manson was too small, and a different type of person. He didn't really get involved in those gangs. And he was locked up, so he couldn't really get involved.
redwizard_001 asks: Do you see him as one of those people who is such a genious that he's insane?
Ed George: Fist of all, he's almost a genius. The highest IQ he tested at was 121 and I think he was playing around. I don't think he's crazy. He's never been diagnosed as psychotic- out of touch with reality, but he has been diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenic. So he's not out of touch with reality, but he does have tendencies to be grandiose, like he thinks he Jesus Christ. If you let him go he plays all these rolls and games, but if you tell him to knock off the BS he'll suddenly switch. He plays a lot of games with these people.
goodsnight asks: So, are serial killers born or created?
goodsnight asks: How did Manson develop such charisma?
Ed George: They're certainly not born, they're created. Society makes people like that, family relations or whatever. Manson was very intelligent, and didn't receive much love in his formative stages and he resented that deeply. And when he started getting shuttled from foster home to foster home to reform schools and juvenile halls and stuff like that, he just was so intelligent that he could see what was going on and he hated society becuase he could see no light at the end of the tunnel. He figured he had to live as best as he knew how. Becuase he was so much smaller than the other kids in the system, he knew that he had to use his wits to manipulate people to survive. He had to and he was able to intimidate much bigger people with his vocabulary and his expressions and his eloquence. He really mastered this way of doing this in his formative years and it carries right on up to the present time. I also think that when you're locked up a lot you get a lot of time to work on things and think, and he had a great memory and a great sense of the dramatic, a great story teller. He had all this going for him, and to use them in an evil manner, taking his skills and misusing them, that was his big mistake.
goodsnight asks: Being around Manson, are you more pessimistic or optimistic about the future of humanity?
Ed George: I'm really very optimistic about the future of humanity. I think that this instant communication that is going on where we get all the latest violence brought into our living rooms I think that terrifies people and that's why our society is getting much meaner than it's ever been because they're afraid their next door neighbor is going to kill them. Actually crime and violence are going down, but people are afraid. I think society is getting better because of that. Even Socrates said the young people of his time were terrible. Shakespeare said the world was coming to an end too. Every generation said that, but it's better than it's ever been. A lot of these guys aren't as bad as the media makes them out to be. I don't think Manson is the monster they make him out to be. And here my book calls him the beast which is not too good but... I told him that everyone has a beast inside them, and he just let his get out of hand, and he sort of understood when I explained the name to him that way.
ctv_will: Thanks very much to Ed George for taking time with us like this.
Ed George: Thank you very much for the interview.
ctv_will: Again, his book is called "Taming the Beast," and it's about his experiences supervising the incarceration of Charles Manson. I'm about halfway through my copy and it is absolutely fascinating, not just for what it has to say about Manson, but becuase Mr. George spent so many years working in the criminal justice system, he tells some amazing prison stories--VERY realistic. I should point out that I work for Court TV, so I don't have any ulterior motive in recommending this book. I don't personally care if you buy it or not, I'm just saying it's an interesting read. Something interesting that you can't perceive online is that whenever he talks about saying something to Charles Manson, he changes his voice slightly. He has a prison voice and a speaking voice, and you can tell that the stories he tells are being told by someone who has a prison identity. For those of you who missed the beginning of this chat, I'll have it up at www.courttv.com/talk before the week is out. The transcript that is. Our next chat coming up is with Linda Fairstein who is an assistant DA in NYC and who writes thriller novels. That's on Tuesday at 7pm ET. You can keep current on CTV chats at the CTV Club at clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/theofficialcourttvclub or at the CTV Talk page www.courttv.com/talk
vicster99 asks: what is the website?
ctv_will: I wish I knew the URL for the Manson site, but I don't remember it. If you look I'm sure you'll find it. It's pretty active and regularly maintained.
