F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF)

[drunknsubmrnr]

So it looks like what they're saying is that the program cost is capped at $9 billion. If the F-35 follows the C-17 cost near-doubling indication Haletown posted, that may mean we won't get 65...more like 40 or so.

 

[Loachman]

The media could quite easily ressurrect articles that they wrote during the F18 test and acquisition programme, and merely change dates, manufacturer's name, and aircraft designation. The criticisms were much the same.

 

[The Bread Guy]

.... in the House of Commons during yesterday's Question Period:

Mr. Speaker, all reasonable people agree that Canada needs aircraft in order to defend Canadian sovereignty. The current CF-18s must be replaced and our budget for the purchase of F-35s remains on track .... Let me be clear, Mr. Speaker. We will ensure that our men and women in uniform have the best equipment to do the job they are required to do safely. As responsible citizens, responsible politicians and responsible government, we owe them no less .... Our budget for the F-35s remains on track. This includes not only the aircraft but also infrastructure, parts, training, simulators, and so forth. It is the only machine that is going to provide us the kind of safety, security and sovereignty in our country that Canada requires at this time and in the future .... the F-35 aircraft is the one item that is absolutely critical and helps to ensure that we will maintain our sovereignty well into the future. It includes not only the aircraft; it includes other components for years to come in the future, enabling Canada to be competitive and coordinated with our partners in NATO and the UN missions.

Transcript of full F-35 Q&A exchange attached if link doesn't work.

 

[WingsofFury]

Most notable part of the transcript came from Ms. Christine Moore (Abitibi—Témiscamingue, NDP):

Six months ago, the government was talking about a $16 billion contract. This week, the government came up with a figure of $9 billion.

Shows just how far behind the ball the Opposition is when it comes to doing their own research on the matter as the $9B was outlined over a year ago in the breakdown of the purchase in documents released by the DND.

An interesting question was posed by Marc Garneau (Westmount—Ville-Marie, Lib.):

That is why the $9 billion price tag bothers me so much. I do not see how we are going to buy
these planes and all the support equipment. I can see only two possible outcomes: we are going spend far more than $9 billion or we will have to buy less than 65 planes.

Which option will this government choose?

****TOOTING OF OWN HORN WITH LINK TO PERSONAL BLOG PIECE****

Which could possibly lend itself to a multi platform fleet as outlined in the blog piece noted below:

The Canadian Air Force Multiple Fast Air Platform Option

Will be interesting to see what direction this whole purchase will take over the next few years, and whether the Government will look at other options which see a secondary platform used conjointly with the F-35.

 

[Haletown]

Will be interesting to see what direction this whole purchase will take over the next few years, and whether the Government will look at other options which see a secondary platform used conjointly with the F-35.

Yes !  At least one Squadron of F-35B's that is specially trained to operate with Army units  right at the edge of the battle space from limited and make-do runways such as roads etc.

Think of it as having an RCAF squadron that thinks and fights like Marine pilots . . . . 

Now that's a mixed fleet  :nod:

 

[SupersonicMax]

Yes !  At least one Squadron of F-35B's that is specially trained to operate with Army units  right at the edge of the battle space from limited and make-do runways such as roads etc.

Think of it as having an RCAF squadron that thinks and fights like Marine pilots . . . . 

Now that's a mixed fleet  :nod:

Except we cannot afford (not enough pilots/airplanes) to have 1 dedicated squadron to the Army. 

 

[dapaterson]

... and the B model will be more expensive to acquire and operate.  And the commonality of parts between models (particularly the Bs) is decreasing as development continues.  And the CF already suffers from too many small fleets (read the staff college paper by then Col Madower for some good insight into the issue).


Indeed, I'm heretical enough to suggest that the ideal Fixed Wing SAR platform would probably be a J-model Herc - since it would provide a larger fleet, meaning we can realize economies of scale in training and maintenance and provide greater flexibility in roles and in fleet management.

 

[GAP]

Ottawa likely to outsource training for stealth-fighter pilots
MURRAY BREWSTER OTTAWA— The Canadian Press  Monday, Oct. 17, 2011
Article Link

Canadian fighter pilots selected to fly the new F-35 could find themselves trained by either the Americans or a private contractor, according to internal air force documents.

The staggering multibillion-dollar purchase price means the Conservative government can only afford 65 of the multi-role stealth fighters.

The number – Canada currently has 79 aging CF-18s – stretches the ability of the air force to meet its commitments, says a series of briefings given to the air force chief last year.

Internal air force memos from the fall of 2010 lay out the “potential for NO pilot training in Canada.”

A separate briefing in April 2010 says the F-35 fleet size is “constrained” by cost and other factors.

The presentations, obtained by The Canadian Press under access to information, rank U.S. Air Force training or a contracted “fee-for-service” approach higher than doing it in Canada.

Defence Minister Peter MacKay has said 65 fighters are more than enough to meet Canada's needs, but the briefing raises questions about that because the air force must keep 36 fighters on standby for North American air defence and another dozen for training.

The spring 2010 assessment, written before the government announced its intention to purchase the jets, suggested the air force “optimize operational capability by not employing (a) portion of the fleet for training.”
More on link

 

[WingsofFury]

And another piece of doom and gloom...lol  You just have to wonder how much they pay people to come up with these headlines...and also whether they'll start referencing current testing records for people to show where the program actually stands.

New stealth fighters lack ability to communicate from Canada’s north

Murray Brewster
Ottawa— The Canadian Press
Published Sunday, Oct. 23, 2011 3:25PM EDT
Last updated Sunday, Oct. 23, 2011 9:01PM EDT

Canada's new multibillion-dollar stealth fighters are expected to arrive without the built-in capacity to communicate from the country's most northerly regions — a gap the air force is trying to close.

A series of briefings given to the country's top air force commander last year expressed concern that the F-35's radio and satellite communications gear may not be as capable as that of the current CF-18s, which recently went through an extensive modernization.

Military aircraft operating in the high Arctic rely almost exclusively on satellite communications, where a pilot's signal is beamed into space and bounced back down to a ground station.

The F-35 Lightning will eventually have the ability to communicate with satellites, but the software will not be available in the initial production run, said a senior Lockheed Martin official, who spoke on background.

It is expected to be added to the aircraft when production reaches its fourth phase in 2019, but that is not guaranteed because research is still underway.

“That hasn't all been nailed down yet,” said the official. “As you can imagine there are a lot of science projects going on, exploring what is the best . . . capability, what satellites will be available.”

Additionally, Canada's request to have the upgrade placed in the fourth phase will compete with software changes sought by other countries. Norway, for example, wants to use its own missiles on the F-35 rather than U.S.-made weapons.

Defending the Arctic is one of the Harper government's key justifications for buying the aircraft, which are estimated to cost between $16 and $30 billion, including long-term maintenance.

A Defence Department spokesman denied that the F-35's communications suite will be less effective than that of CF-18s, but acknowledged that so-called beyond-line-of-sight communications is a concern.

“Communications in the Arctic represents a specific challenge to all aircraft due to lack of satellite coverage in the north,” said Evan Koronewski in an email response. “Canada is working closely with the other partner nations to ensure Canadian operational requirements for communications in the Arctic are met.”

Air force planners recognized the problem last year and are “considering a back-up,” said an April 2010 briefing.

A study is looking at whether an external communications pod can be installed on the F-35.

Mr. Koronewski said it is one of “many options” being investigated, but wasn't able to discuss other potential solutions.

The sophisticated pods, which are carried by the CF-18s, were purchased as part of the $2.6-billion fleet upgrade, which began in 2000.

The briefing to the chief of air staff noted that installing such pods could be made more affordable if other countries participated.

The communications problem is just one of several technical issues the air force is working on.

National Defence has asked the U.S. manufacturer whether it's possible to install a different air-to-air refuelling system on Canadian F-35s. Most other air forces in the world have stopped using what's known as a “probe and drogue” connection, opting instead for a plug-in receptacle which connects to a boom on the tanker aircraft.

The request was made because it's unclear when Canada will able to upgrade its air-to-air refuellers with the booms. Lockheed Martin says it can equip the F-35s to use both systems, but a decision on whether to spend money on modification has yet to be made.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/new-stealth-fighters-lack-ability-to-communicate-from-canadas-north/article2210678/

 

[Haletown]

"National Defence has asked the U.S. manufacturer whether it's possible to install a different air-to-air refuelling system on Canadian F-35s. Most other air forces in the world have stopped using what's known as a “probe and drogue” connection, opting instead for a plug-in receptacle which connects to a boom on the tanker aircraft."

Good one.  Serious reporting and comedy in the same story.

 

[Haletown]

speaking of Flight Testing . . .  this just popped into my Inbox from SLD.

http://www.sldinfo.com/the-f-35-pilot/

The pilots seem to like the aircraft.

 

[WingsofFury]

And now the government response...why can't anyone just say that the Hornets will be around doing NORAD missions in the high north until after the JSF's have the upgrade done?  It's not like we're going to retire all of our CF-18's the second we start receiving the -35's...

Tory procurement chief vows fighter jets will be up to the job in Arctic

Jane Taber
OTTAWA— Globe and Mail Update
Posted on Monday, October 24, 2011 11:48AM EDT

Stephen Harper’s minister in charge of military procurement is assuring taxpayers the communications system on costly new F-35 stealth fighters will “meet or exceed current capabilities.”

Julian Fantino, the Associate Minister of National Defence, told The Globe and Mail on Monday the government will “ensure that our men and women in uniform have the best equipment to do their jobs safely and effectively.”

Mr. Fantino’s statement, sent by email from his director of communications Chris McCluskey, is vague amid a dramatic weekend report that the 65 jets the government is purchasing will not be able to communicate from the Arctic.

However, the minister may be forced to reveal more as the opposition plans to pursue the story in Question Period later Monday.

The government’s justification for the new fighter jets is, part, for patrolling the Far North and protecting Canada’s airspace. The Conservatives have made Arctic sovereignty a main plank of their government.

“Reasonable people agree that we need aircraft to defend Canadian sovereignty,” Mr. Fantino said in his statement. “We expect communications for our aircraft in the north to meet or exceed current capabilities.”

The Canadian Press report says the F-35s – which will cost between $16- and $35-billion, including long-term maintenance – will likely not have the communications capability in the initial stage of production and then not until production reaches its fourth phase in 2019.

That ability is key to working in the Arctic where military aircraft now rely on satellite communications, according to the report.

The F-35 purchase has proved controversial of late, given the awarding last week of the $33-billion shipbuilding contract. The bidding process was at arms-length from politicians and politics and has been hailed as a template for future contract awards.

Some opposition politicians, including Interim Liberal Leader Bob Rae, have asked the Prime Minister why this same process couldn’t have been used on the jet purchase. The opposition has been very critical of the fact that the fighter contract was sole-sourced.

The Liberals vowed in the May election to cancel the commitment to buy the jets if they were elected and ton instead hold an open competition.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/tory-procurement-chief-vows-fighter-jets-will-be-up-to-the-job-in-arctic/article2211518/

 

[PuckChaser]

The Liberals vowed in the May election to cancel the commitment to buy the jets if they were elected and ton instead hold an open competition.

Maybe that's why they dramatically lost seats? Could at least be one of the factors...

 

[Haletown]

Lots of teapot, not much tempest.

The news appears to be the planned roll-out of F-35 capabilities,  a capability roll-out that is a series of software upgrades, which includes a suite of secure SatComs for data and voice, is happening as planned and that, it appears, to be bad news.

Further in the story we are told that a  design feature of the F-35A - that the aircraft has been designed to handle either or both methods of aerial refueling, that we can select the refueling method Canada prefers,  is now somehow a technical issue. 

We are further  told that most other air forces in the world don't use the  Probe  & Drogue  technology we have opted for - with the implied  message that a major mistake has been made in the selection of a refueling technology for the CF -35.  I think it would be a very major surprise to "most other air forces"  that they have switched to Boom technology to refuel their fighters.

Wonder why if the majority of other air forces have switched to Boom refueling that all the western world fighter aircraft manufacturers make fighter aircraft with Probe & Drogue technology and all the dedicated  aerial refueling aircraft fly with that reel & hose pods?

Most curios state of affairs.

 

[thunderchild]

I just read an article from the Ottawa Citizen that stated that the F-35 will not be delivered with the ability to communicate by satellite.  It also stated that that system may not be developed and as delivered will not have the ability to communicate in the arctic?  The solution suggested was to hang equipment on the aircraft, that would increase its radar signature but give it the same capability as the CF-18.  So we are buying a plane that does not have all the equipment that we need, It's stealth would be compromised to bring it to the level of the plane it is suppose to be better than, and there is debate over what the real flyaway cost will be? So what do we really know about this $30B purchase for certain....it's a 5th generation plane.  How's this plane up to the job? ???

 

[Haletown]

I just read an article from the Ottawa Citizen that stated that the F-35 will not  . . .  blah, blah blah . . .  .  How's this plane up to the job? ???

lotsa F-35 porn to read and think about

http://issuu.com/faircountmedia/docs/jsf06

 

[Edward Campbell]

Just because it's a good cartoon ... not because I think the RCAF will not solve whatever comms problems (always) exist with any aircraft project.

 

[GAP]

Ottawa to spend up to $477M on U.S. military satellites
http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/10/26/ottawa-to-spend-up-to-477m-on-u-s-military-satellites/

Postmedia News  Oct 26, 2011 – 8:35 PM ET

By Lee Berthiaume

OTTAWA — The federal government is planning to spend as much as $477-million to participate in a U.S.-led military satellite program that has been subject to delays and cost overruns over the past decade, Postmedia News has learned.

The Wideband Global Satellite system has been advertised by the U.S. Defense Department as a communications system for “U.S. warfighters, allies and coalition partners during all levels of conflict, short of nuclear war.”

The idea is to have as many as nine military satellites hovering over different parts of the world, ready to provide high-frequency bandwidth for U.S. and allied forces wherever they may be operating.

Daniel Blouin, a spokesman for Canada’s Department of National Defence, said the Canadian Forces has identified improved communication capabilities as a necessity.

“After Afghanistan and Libya, our efforts in those two countries have proven that the exchange of information between headquarters and deployed elements is critical to modern military operations and their success,” Blouin said.

“So, in order to meet that intent while ensuring good value for taxpayer money, we’re seeking out an agreement with international allies that will provide Canadian forces with access to an international constellation of satellites.”

If Canada does join the Wideband Global Satellite System, or WGS, it will be the latest ally to get onboard the project.

Australia agreed in 2007 to contribute more than $800 million US to pay for the sixth satellite in return for a portion of the system’s overall bandwidth. New Zealand, Luxembourg, Denmark and the Netherlands also have expressed interest.

Several weeks ago, Cabinet gave Defence Minister Peter MacKay permission to pay up to $477-million to ensure Canadian participation.

Blouin would not say what type of agreement Canada is pursuing as negotiations are still underway. However, he said the $477-million would be paid over a number of years.

“We’re not looking for access to military communications for a single year. That’s not in our best interests,” he said. “We’re looking for long-term planning to meet the needs of the Canadian Forces.”

The federal government is looking to create a two-satellite system over the Arctic to provide Canada with improved military communication services and aid in defence operations.

 

[McG]

It seems the newest political debate is that we may not be planning to buy enough.

Military: Too few F-35 fighters on tap
Cost of up to $150 million each limits purchase to 65, not the suggested 80
Murray Brewster
The Canadian Press
Published in: The Chronicle-Herald
02 Nov 2011

OTTAWA - Military planners are concerned the Harper government is buying too few F-35 fighters with almost no room for any loss of the stealth jets throughout their projected lifetimes, according to internal Defence Department briefings.

"Canada is the only country that did not account (for) attrition aircraft" in its proposal, said an undated capability-and-sustainment briefing given to senior officers late last year.

The eye-popping pricetag for individual joint strike fighters - ranging from $75 million to $150 million, depending upon the estimate - has limited the purchase to 65 aircraft.

Access-to-information records, obtained by The Canadian Press, show that when the joint strike fighter was proposed almost a decade ago the air force had recommended a fleet of 80.

Nevertheless, Defence Minister Peter MacKay has insisted 65 is adequate to meet Canada's military needs.

But a separate information briefing from earlier in 2010 shows that the country is purchasing "the minimum acceptable fleet size" and that the air force has been told it should "be prepared to manage the operational risk should the fleet drop below 65 due to attrition."

The F-35s are replacing roughly 77 CF-18s - just over half the original number of 138 purchased almost 30 years ago.

Some of the existing fleet was retired by the Chretien government to save money in the 1990s, while others were lost due to accidents.

Air force planners began to sweat after crunching attrition numbers for the new stealth jet last fall. They looked at the CF-18's accident rate per 100,000 hours of flying time and determined the F-35 might be able to evade radar, but it can't escape fate.

"Canada will lose aircraft; not a question of "if' but "when,' " said a Sept. 14, 2010, report.

On the upside, the planners believe that the highly automated F-35s will likely lead to fewer human-error - or "pilot-distraction" - crashes.

There was a spike in CF-18 accidents shortly after they were introduced as aircrew became familiar with them - something the air force worries will happen with the new jets.

The concern has been flagged to the attention of the Harper government, which "will consider the acquisition of replacement attrition aircraft," said the briefing.

But there's a problem there with that. Lockheed Martin is expecting to shut down its production line in 2035, while Canada is committed to flying the stealth fighter until at least 2050.

No one at the Defence Department was immediately available for comment on Tuesday.

But the executive director of the Air Force Association of Canada said it's understood the Harper government is buying what it can afford.

"The cost drives anything and everything, every time," said Dean Black, a retired lieutenant-colonel. "The folks in the highest offices in the country balance all of the considerations and we happen to be living in a tough economy. It is understood these are dire times."

Given the economic times and since the issue is routinely rocketed into the political stratosphere, the chances of the Harper government convincing anyone it needs more stealth jets is next to unlikely, he said.

Black said it's long been accepted that in the event of war or serious emergency, even with CF-18s, the Royal Canadian Air Force does not have enough fighters to maintain continuous air cover over each of the country's major cities.

A U.S. diplomatic cable recently highlighted Washington's concern about that fact and complained about the necessity of the U.S. Air Force stepping in to defend Canadian airspace.

"I'm hoping this report will focus the attention of our elected officials and most senior military officials on what it is we have to do to protect Canadians in Canada."

The air force report noted that Lockheed Martin will test-fly planes while building production models - a risky proposition according to critics.

The first Canadian F-35 is expected to be delivered in 2016 to the pilot training centre in the U.S.

It will take another three years before the first stealth plane makes it to an operational squadron, 4 Wing at CFB Cold Lake, Alta. Bagotville, Que., the other new home, won't see its first plane until 2020, according to internal documents.

The delivery schedule is pushing the current CF-18s to the very limit of their operational life. Even after a multibillion-dollar facelift, the workhorse of the fighter community, designed in the 1980s, is projected to be retired in 2020.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I got a chuckle out of this, previously I had picked 80 air frames as the number we should get for a mixed fleet of F-35's and other (Super Hornet likely) My number was a guesstimate, man I should offer my services as a consultant for a modest fee of course... ;D