F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF)

[dapaterson]

However That's what the west has been doing, particularly with the F-35. It been pouring tens of billions into its radar and sensor development... which will continue past the IOC of 2017.

So, at IOC in 2017 will the F-35's capabilities meet Canada's defined High Level Mandatory Requirements?

 

[HB_Pencil]

So, at IOC in 2017 will the F-35's capabilities meet Canada's defined High Level Mandatory Requirements?

Tough to say... the particulars of the HLMR (to coin an acronym) have never been released. The big difference between Block 2B and 3F is the level of sensor fusion and integration of a full suite weapons (most of which Canada would not ever purchase). It still has sensor fusion; it probably akin to what we would have now with the modernized CF-18, or around that of other aircraft like the Rafale. It really depends how the HLMR for sensor fusion is defined.

Practically its a bit of an academic question and will not make much of a difference... our first squadron probably won't stand up until 2020 or so, and 3F is scheduled to come in 2018. Our training should be able to incorporate the new software package without significant disruption.

 

[SupersonicMax]

HB_Pencil,

Comparing sensor fusion of the Hornet to that of the JSF is like comparing computers 30 years ago to todays.  It is totally not comparable

 

[dapaterson]

HB_Pencil,

Comparing sensor fusion of the Hornet to that of the JSF is like comparing computers 30 years ago to todays.  It is totally not comparable

Well, the Hornet is an operationally proven combat platform, unlike the F-35.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Well, the Hornet is an operationally proven combat platform, unlike the F-35.

And to extend your analogy,  in 1979 the  F-104 was an operationally proven combat platform, unlike the Hornet.

Things change, things get old.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

The CIA used to put out an annual book - the title escapes me - about all of this scary stuff, most likely just to frighten politicians into spending more on defence. 

The two most popular were the Annual Threat Assessment and The World Factbook.
You mean, completely unlike our F-35 cheerleaders? 

I think the book Loachman is referring to is Soviet Military Power. And it was a produced by the DoD, not the CIA.

 

[HB_Pencil]

HB_Pencil,

Comparing sensor fusion of the Hornet to that of the JSF is like comparing computers 30 years ago to todays.  It is totally not comparable

Absolutely... however you're referring to F-35 Block 3F. The version the OP was asking about is Block 2B (or to be precise 3I), that will have some sensor fusion capabilities, just not all of the development systems included. Some sensor fusion will have to be implemented with 2b/3i as it will have the VSI helmet and MADL integrated and data will require fusing to get that to operate. But how much is the question. It may be very limited (Ie like modernized hornet), it might be on the level of Rafale or the Super hornet (it may even reach the levels cited for AMC-4 equipped aircraft.) Its precise nature (ie an itemized list) has not been revealed, though we're just under a year away from 2B completing development and about twenty months from fleet release.

 

[Loachman]

I think the book Loachman is referring to is Soviet Military Power.

I think that you're right.

 

[Kirkhill]

In the end you are likely going to end up paying the license fee for the software embedded into the equipment.

2B software?  Here's the Product Key.

3I software?  For an additional sum we can make that available to you over the phone today.  Do you want to upgrade to our Premium 3A package?


Scary thought:  What happens if the license agreement terminates during operations?  >

 

[HB_Pencil]

In the end you are likely going to end up paying the license fee for the software embedded into the equipment.

2B software?  Here's the Product Key.

3I software?  For an additional sum we can make that available to you over the phone today.  Do you want to upgrade to our Premium 3A package?


Scary thought:  What happens if the license agreement terminates during operations?  >

Maybe it should be coin operated: insert coins before each flight?

 

[Ostrozac]

I firmly believe that the Chinese equipment isn't primarily intended to fight a near-peer fight against western forces. To deter them? Absolutely, but the Chinese have a long term plan, and going head to head with the US, or Russia, or Japan isn't in that plan. The new generation of Chinese weapons is going to be used the same place the last generation of Russian and US weapons has been used: the Third World. Either by Chinese clients, or directly by Chinese forces fighting to prop up those clients and protect strategic interests like trade and raw materials.

Is there a lesson in there for the west? Should we be acquiring weapons primarily for short skirmishes and extended quagmires in the Third World, with peer-on-peer capability being a secondary concern? During our next Libya, do we need F-35, or would we be better off with lots of F-15 Strike Eagles?

 

[Loachman]

During our next Libya, do we need F-35, or would we be better off with lots of F-15 Strike Eagles?

That depends.

When is that next Libya scheduled? And the one after that? How useful will an older design be in ten, twenty, thirty, or forty years compared to a new design?

 

[HB_Pencil]

I firmly believe that the Chinese equipment isn't primarily intended to fight a near-peer fight against western forces. To deter them? Absolutely, but the Chinese have a long term plan, and going head to head with the US, or Russia, or Japan isn't in that plan. The new generation of Chinese weapons is going to be used the same place the last generation of Russian and US weapons has been used: the Third World. Either by Chinese clients, or directly by Chinese forces fighting to prop up those clients and protect strategic interests like trade and raw materials.

Is there a lesson in there for the west? Should we be acquiring weapons primarily for short skirmishes and extended quagmires in the Third World, with peer-on-peer capability being a secondary concern? During our next Libya, do we need F-35, or would we be better off with lots of F-15 Strike Eagles?

Given that the F-15E is likely more expensive to purchase and significantly more expensive to operate than the F-35, it makes little sense to go with it. Really the biggest advantage that the F-15E has over the F-35 is its range and payload capacity with range. Yet that means less these days with munitions getting smaller and more accurate over the past two decades. A second seat is also an advantage, but that must be weighed with the added cost it entails.

 

[Remius]

I firmly believe that the Chinese equipment isn't primarily intended to fight a near-peer fight against western forces. To deter them? Absolutely, but the Chinese have a long term plan, and going head to head with the US, or Russia, or Japan isn't in that plan. The new generation of Chinese weapons is going to be used the same place the last generation of Russian and US weapons has been used: the Third World. Either by Chinese clients, or directly by Chinese forces fighting to prop up those clients and protect strategic interests like trade and raw materials.

Is there a lesson in there for the west? Should we be acquiring weapons primarily for short skirmishes and extended quagmires in the Third World, with peer-on-peer capability being a secondary concern? During our next Libya, do we need F-35, or would we be better off with lots of F-15 Strike Eagles?

While I agree with you first para, I think that you second para which is more of a question, is not something to consider.  While China may not be aiming for a peer to peer with West and hopefully neither are we, we should always be aiming for superiority.  Better training, better troops, better equipment.  It's what will give us the edge.  We don't have the numbers or the luxury of doing things on the cheap.  Well motivated, well trained and well equiped.  History has shown this is a winning combo.

 

[Kirkhill]

Current pricing info on the Eurofighter/Typhoon

Translated to Canadian Dollars it equates to an average unit cost of 186 MCAD per aircraft currently - possibly falling to an average unit cost of 160 MCAD by the end of the delivery

German Air Force Bill for Eurofighters Escalates-Report


(Source: 4-traders; published July 7, 2013)
 


The German air force's bill for an order of 180 Eurofighter jets is rising beyond the planned 14.7 billion euros, said a German magazine on Sunday.

Der Spiegel said the Luftwaffe now expected to have paid 14.5 billion euros by the end of this year for only 108 of the fighters and will pay 16.8 billion euros by 208 for 143 jets - paying more money for less fighters.

"It is correct that the cost of the Eurofighters is rising," said a ministry spokesman, but he declined to give details.

The Eurofighter multi-role Typhoon jet is manufactured by Airbus-owner EADS (>> EADS), Italy's Finmeccanica (>> Finmeccanica SpA) and Britain's BAE Systems (>> BAE Systems plc). The manufacturers did not respond to a request for a comment on the report.

The new chief of the Eurofighter Typhoon said at the Paris Air Show last month that he will lay out plans this year to make the fighter cheaper in an increasingly competitive market.

The Eurofighter's main competitors include Lockheed Martin's F-35 jet, Dassault Aviation's Rafale fighter and the Gripen by Sweden's Saab AB.

-ends-

 

[dapaterson]

Current pricing info on the Eurofighter/Typhoon

Translated to Canadian Dollars it equates to an average unit cost of 186 MCAD per aircraft currently - possibly falling to an average unit cost of 160 MCAD by the end of the delivery

However, the last 35 are costing 2.3B euros - or about 66M euros each.  Would Canada be paying pro-rated R&D on a Typhoon purchase? 

 

[Kirkhill]

Fair point.

But would Canada be getting IRB benefits AND only paying 66 MCAD per unit?  Also what advantage would Canadian Aerospace industry be getting with a mature aircraft with open production lines?

 

[dapaterson]

Fair point.

But would Canada be getting IRB benefits AND only paying 66 MCAD per unit?  Also what advantage would Canadian Aerospace industry be getting with a mature aircraft with open production lines?

That's 66M euros, not CAD - I don't think the exchange rate is 1:1.  But if you know a place where it is, I'd be happy to take advantage of the arbitrage possibilities...

EDIT: Looked, rate is 1.36:1, so that would be $89.75M CAD each

EDIT AGAIN: Because I can't spell...

 

[Kirkhill]

Sorry, my error on the CAD/EURO.

1.36 is the rate I used to come up with the average unit costs.

Still, it does suggest a diminishing difference in costs between the Tiffie and the F35 - regardless of how the costs are apportioned.

By the way - here is a real Tiffie at its best.

 

[The pea18]

Hey,I'm lookin to join,and I'm new and from Manitoba Canada,how and we're can I sign up thanks