Education and Gender (and maybe domestic abuse?)

[Glorified Ape]

This discussion got started here: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/28255.0.html but was unrelated so I made a tangent thread.

I guess you are unaware of our Teachers (male & female) plight and concerns about classroom behavior (Grade School in particular) these days.

Funny, I was one of those kids in elementary and junior-high school - so much so that I was segregated into behavioral class (in elementary) and slowly reintegrated over the period of a couple years. I didn't need any medication and there were extremely few like me, vis a vis the entire student body at the schools I went to. In fact, I'd wager I was the worst in my first elementary school. Disruptive, violent, resistant/defiant of authority, etc. This was maybe 13-15 years ago. We didn't need to stuff kids full of Ritalin back then, and I don't think we need to now either. I managed to get an education and go on to university and I'm one of the least violent people I know now - all without achieved without drugs (medicinal anyway).

There's been a shift of focus educationally onto girls - both in the home and in school. Parents are more likely to read to their girls than to their boys and governments have actually instituted programs to encourage female interest and enrollment in the sciences and math. We have campaigns out there to up increase female self-esteem while the programs we market to boys are sexual harassment training and anti-violence programs. This is doing our boys a disservice and we're starting to see the effects: lower male achievement, lower male enrollment in post-secondary education, etc. Further, the treatment and disciplining of boys and girls is unequal - teachers are much more likely to discipline and single out boys than girls for disruptive behaviour (see: Berns, Roberta. 2004. "Child, Family, School, Community: Socialization and Support" 6th Edn. Wadsworth: Toronto, p. 257). The education system seemed to work fine for boys way back when - why is it that it's not working as well now? Have boys changed that much or is it the re-engineering of education (female dominated at the primary and junior levels), in an age of PC feminism?

Prescription drugs, are used to bring them into a reasonably normal range of manageability. Without the fear that they might poke an eye out of one of their classmates. Also giving them a chance for a reasonable absorbsion of knowledge, without they would not be able to.

It really surprises me in this day and age that there are so many misinformed people I suggest you make the acquaintance of a number of Teachers, maybe even sit in a classroom session. Failing that, there are a great number of good books on the subject.

I'm well aware of the Ritalin Revolution. As for teachers, they teach how they're taught to teach and what they're told to teach - I don't blame them necessarily for our education system neglecting our boys.

With regard to the Natural Male Tendencies your description would be, Tobacco Chewing, Sun Burnt Neck, Club Carrying, Drooling Brute. No wonder Domestic Violence is on the rise.

Is that your description of me or of what you think I'm referring to as "natural male tendencies"?

As for domestic abuse, men and women abuse each other domestically at virtually the same rate - men just tend to inflict more damage when they do it and more male domestic abuse fits the "battering" and "murder" categories. It really surprises me how there are so many misinformed people.

 

[FastEddy]

This discussion got started here: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/28255.0.html but was unrelated so I made a tangent thread.

"Funny, I was one of those kids in elementary and junior-high school - so much so that I was segregated into behavioral class (in elementary) and slowly reintegrated over the period of a couple years. I didn't need any medication and there were extremely few like me, vis a vis the entire student body at the schools I went to. In fact, I'd wager I was the worst in my first elementary school. Disruptive, violent, resistant/defiant of authority, etc. This was maybe 13-15 years ago. We didn't need to stuff kids full of Ritalin back then, and I don't think we need to now either. I managed to get an education and go on to university and I'm one of the least violent people I know now - all without achieved without drugs (medicinal anyway)."

50 years ago we never heard or were faced with HIV or AIDS. ADD and Autistic Children are reaching alarming numbers. I doubt that neither applied to your Bad A** attitude (15 years ago).

"There's been a shift of focus educationally onto girls - both in the home and in school. Parents are more likely to read to their girls than to their boys and governments have actually instituted programs to encourage female interest and enrollment in the sciences and math. We have campaigns out there to up increase female self-esteem while the programs we market to boys are sexual harassment training and anti-violence programs. This is doing our boys a disservice and we're starting to see the effects: lower male achievement, lower male enrollment in post-secondary education, etc. Further, the treatment and disciplining of boys and girls is unequal - teachers are much more likely to discipline and single out boys than girls for disruptive behaviour (see: Bern's, Roberta. 2004. "Child, Family, School, Community: Socialization and Support" 6th Edan. Wadsworth: Toronto, p. 257). The education system seemed to work fine for boys way back when - why is it that it's not working as well now? Have boys changed that much or is it the re-engineering of education (female dominated at the primary and junior levels), in an age of PC feminism?"

I would suggest why it was necessary in the first place to try and raise Female Self Esteem ?.

"I'm well aware of the Ritalin Revolution. As for teachers, they teach how they're taught to teach and what they're told to teach - I don't blame them necessarily for our education system neglecting our boys."

I don't think theres too much wrong with the Curriculum, rather its the method's and control of the same.

"Is that your description of me or of what you think I'm referring to as "natural male tendencies"?"

No, it was a generalization directed at someone else.

"As for domestic abuse, men and women abuse each other domestically at virtually the same rate - men just tend to inflict more damage when they do it and more male domestic abuse fits the "battering" and "murder" categories."

This is so condisending, virtually at the same rate, I don't think so.

 

[Glorified Ape]

50 years ago we never heard or were faced with HIV or AIDS. ADD and Autistic Children are reaching alarming numbers. I doubt that neither applied to your Bad A** attitude (15 years ago).

HIV and AIDS are sexually transmitted diseases - we didn't have SARS way back when either and they're both immaterial to children's behaviour and the current trend to drug kids for behaviour that, 30 years ago, was dealt with sans-drugs.

Now we're not only diagnosing every kid with a low interest in school and high activity level with ADD, but we're starting on adults too. I don't deny that ADD can exist in some kids, but I think it's way overblown and instead of dealing with misbehaving children properly - through discipline and instruction - we're just cramming them full of drugs so they'll sit still.

I would suggest why it was necessary in the first place to try and raise Female Self Esteem ?

I don't know and I don't particularly care either. The problem, again, is not that there are programs to raise girls' self esteem but that such "pro-active" programs exist for girls while we do little more for boys than punish them and subject them to programs and lectures on sexual harassment and the evils of violence - implying to them that our main concern for them is that they don't turn into violent rapists while we're telling our girls, by implication, that they "can do anything" and should "strive for achievement", "enter the sciences and mathematics", etc. - all encouragement, not pre-emptive "don't do that" training.

I don't think theres too much wrong with the Curriculum, rather its the method's and control of the same.

I don't necessarily disagree with you.

No, it was a generalization directed at someone else.

Riiiight.

This is so condisending, virtually at the same rate, I don't think so.

Hamby and Sugarman found no gender differences  and Grandin et al. found women were more likely to use severe violence tactics.  Researchers Sherry Hamby and David Sugarman found a difference of 7% between men and women in their perpetration of intimate violence.

- Hamby, Sherry L. and David B. Sugarman. 1999. â Å“Acts of Psychological Aggression Against a Partner and their Relation to Physical Assault and Genderâ ?. Journal of Marriage and Family. 61. p 965.
 
- Grandin, E. et al. 1997. â Å“Couple Violence and Psychological Distressâ ?. Canadian Journal of Public Health. 88.

In a sample of 1599 couples, a study on intimate violence rates in the United States found that men and women perpetrate intimate violence, on a per-couple basis, with equal frequency.

- Schafer, John et al. 1998. â Å“Rates of Intimate Partner Violence in the United Statesâ ?. American Journal of Public Health. 88. p 1703.

Statistics Canada's 2003 Family Profile stated, based on information from the 1999 General Social Survey (GSS), a difference of 1% between men and women reporting experiencing physical violence in a spousal relationship (common law or married). 

- Statistics Canada. 2003. Family Violence in Canada: A Statistical Profile 2003. (Ottawa: Health Canada). p 4.


If you want to read more:

Fekete, John. 1995. Moral Panic: Biopolitics Rising. 2nd Ed. (Montreal: Robert Davies Publishing).

Foo, L. and Margolin, G. 1995. â Å“A Multivariate Investigation of Dating Aggressionâ ?.  Journal of Family Violence. 10.

Grandin, E. et al. 1997. â Å“Couple Violence and Psychological Distressâ ?. Canadian Journal of Public Health. 88.

Greene, Kelly and Marion Bogo. 2002. â Å“The Different Faces of Intimate Violence: Implications for Assessment and Treatmentâ ?. Journal of Marital and Family Therapy. 28.

Hamby, Sherry L. and David B. Sugarman. 1999. â Å“Acts of Psychological Aggression Against a Partner and their Relation to Physical Assault and Genderâ ?. Journal of Marriage and Family. 61.

Health Canada. 1999. Husband Abuse: An Overview of Research and Perspectives. (Ottawa: Health Canada).

McNeely, R. L. and Gloria Robinson-Simpson. 1988. â Å“The Truth about Domestic Violence Revisited: A Reply to Saundersâ ?. Social Work. 33.

Murty, Susan A et al. 2003. â Å“Physical and Emotional Partner Abuse Reported by Men and Women in a Rural Communityâ ?. American Journal of Public Health. 93.

Schafer, John et al. 1998. â Å“Rates of Intimate Partner Violence in the United Statesâ ?. American Journal of Public Health. 88.

Sommer, Reena. 1994. â Å“Male and Female Perpetrated Partner Abuse: Testing a Diathesis-Stress Modelâ ?. University of Manitoba PhD dissertation (unpublished) cited in: Fekete, John. 1995. Moral Panic: Biopolitics Rising. 2nd Ed. (Montreal: Robert Davies Publishing), 89.

Statistics Canada. 2003. Family Violence in Canada: A Statistical Profile 2003. 
(Ottawa: Health Canada).

Straus, Murray A and Stephen Sweet. 1992. â Å“Verbal/Symbolic Aggression in Couples: Incidence Rates and Relationships to Personal Characteristicsâ ?. Journal of Marriage and Family. 54.

Straus, Murray A. 1979. â Å“Measuring intra family conflict and violence: The Conflict Tactics Scaleâ ?. Journal of Marriage and the Family. 41.

 

[Strike]

Holy cow GA, what did you study in school?  Either that or you have a very extensive library -- or live in one.

 

[Glorified Ape]

Holy cow GA, what did you study in school?   Either that or you have a very extensive library -- or live in one.

Still studying - political science (3rd year). That stuff is all taken from a paper I wrote for a poli sci course (survey research and design) on gender parity in intimate violence.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Wow!  when do you find time to sleep, Ape?

CHIMO,  Kat

 

[TCBF]

"In fact, I'd wager I was the worst in my first elementary school. Disruptive, violent, resistant/defiant of authority, etc. "

Thank heavens your photo hints at none of that!  ;D

Seriously, well done.  You set high standards for the rest of us.

Tom

 

[TCBF]

I have moved my earlier answer to this thread here.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Here's by beef: why would they get guys to design a bra?  It's bad enough I have to wear unisex (read: male) long underwear that was obviously designed by a man who thought highly of himself."

Well, a lot of us find them kind of tight.

"The day we started to take Education out of the hands of the Educators and into Civic Groups, Lawyers, Concerned Social Services and Parents was the day Education started to decline.
The hands of our Teachers are tied so tightly today, our Public Education System is the proof of the pudding."

Dead wrong, the best teachers know that activist parents can bring effective political pressure  to effect positive change.  Where parents and teachers cross sticks is when the teachers put their union ahead of the children.

"As for Special Needs Education it has always been a vocation better suited to Women, the reasons being quite obvious."

I guess they aren't that obvious to me, so I will ask you to list a couple.  The last principal of that school was a man, who ran a tight ship and ensured his teachers TAUGHT. He was not their friend, he was their boss. And he was a superb proponent of the total communication program.

"As a point of interest, when was the last time you read about a female Child Molestors."

The ones who sleep with their teenage students, get fired, and leave their husbands, you mean?
Are you suggesting that it is public policy to encourage only female teachers because the males might molest the children?  Please explain.

"When you went to School, it was a whole different ball game. And as YOU ADMITTED, YOU TURNED OUT OKAY, I don't ever recall being raised as girl. Today you don't have to look very far for the root cause of the problems, any mirror will do. BUT OH! NO ITS THE TEACHERS FAULT Little Johnny is such a rotton foul mouth, uncontrollable SOB."

No, I agree with you in that teachers cannot replace two (and it does take two - a man and a woman) parents.  That is not my point.  My point is that they cannot raise boys as little girls and expect it to work.  As well, they must meet and maintain their own professional standards, or leave.  Teachers - like soldiers - who cannot or will not do their jobs must be replaced.

"As for the Staff all belonging to the same Union, it would appear your reasoning is warped in that area also."

Kindly explain.  In Alberta, leaving a principal in the ATA is unfair to the principal, it makes it difficult to act on a teacher's issues if you both belong to the same union.  Ontario does not have that problem.

My son's school has some SUPERB teachers.  Some of the best in the province, I bet.  That school is bleeding kids, parents, and good teachers because of the failure in leadership at the upper levels.  The staff "Loser Ratio" has gotten too high, and when that happens - like in any other organization -  the good ones - including parents - just give up and go to another school.  Sad but true.

Tom

 

[Strike]

Removed 'cause I found the original post by TCBF.

 

[TCBF]

" Maybe in the leg, but I seriously doubt you can fill in the rest."

Being a happily married man, I am again forced to avoid battle, though victory was certain.

;D

Well, maybe not.

;D

Tom

 

[Ghost]

I noticed a huge difference when I went to summer school.

At first not everybody got along for the first couple of days and we had a substitute teacher for the first week and the class really butted heads with her at first.  After a week everybody was starting to get along and made the best of it since we were all stuck there together.  By the end of it people were working together and helping each other out and nobody failed the class.  Very positive and productive enviroment

I got the second highest mark in the class and since I was the only general student in the advanced science class I did the exact same work and tests as everybody else and the teacher said I should be taking advanced classes.

Then when the fall came I went to register with a new high school because I had moved.  Figures I get the councelour from hell.  I told her I wanted to take advanced courses and she said no.  I told her that my teacher from summer school had also told me that I should be taking advanced courses but she told me I would need that in writing from the teacher.  I told her again that I am not making this up and I want to take advanced courses.  So she offered me a deal and gave me 1 advanced course and said if I do really good on that she might put me in advanced courses for next semester.  Again I tell her I want to take advanced courses and she comes up with the best come back ever "well I want to be a country singer".  So yeah that was the begining of the end of my high school days because it was just a downward spiral and I got accused of stealing money from my own mother, got picked on by my teachers,  the students didn't hit me which was a nice change but I didn't bother to come back for the second semester.  Then when I went to apply for the army and pick up my highschool transcripts the secretary was giving me a hard time because I asked for my high school transcripts instead of high school transcript.

Even at my job teachers would talk down to me because they didn't get service with a smile.  "You don't care its just a job to you." is what they would say.

But anyways the school system sucks because I would get pushed around and then when I started pushing back suddenly I was the one with the problem.

You don't always win your battles but its good to know you fought.