Drug use/drug testing in the CF (merged)

[Dire]

Since Canada is about to vote about the Decrim of Marijuana what do you think the CF stance would be?

It‘s weird, the more people I talk too the more I realize the stance on people from differnt provinces is about weed.

I personally come from BC which alot of Civies smoke Marijuana (I was one of them until I decided to join the CF) Here Marijuana isnt a big thing. You get busted for an eight and the cops just laugh at you and take it away not even fining you. But I hear in other provinces the police have a differnt stance on pot.

People have been educated that Marijuana is so bad that you shouldnt smoke it, but then again Alchohol is 10x worse but it‘s legal and government taxed.

If any anti-marijuana person can tell me 1 time someone has been killed due to marijuana besides the fact that it was a DD who maybe smoked a joint, because there hasnt been one insodent that I can think of.

I personally would like to know the stance of which the CF would take on Marijuana. Obviously smoking while in uniform would be prohibded, but what if you were off duty?

The big issue would be in random drug tests. Should THC in your blood system get you expelled from the CF? Because I can tell you if you are in a party and Marijuana is being smoked you have a big chance of inhauling the THC which sticks to your fat cells and stays in your system for along time but then again it all depends on how much smoke you inhaule.

This isnt a flame issue, if you are an anti marijuana you have no right to flame unless you can dig up postivie facts that Marujuana is truley bad for you. (and when I say bad, i mean is it worse then drinking alchohol?)

 

[Grunt_031]

From my understanding the goverment is not decrimalizing. It is still will be illegal to possess "the weed" but instead of jail time and criminal record, it will be a fine instead (another cash cow me thinks). I think a lot of people think we are going to do the way of the Danes. As for the Military I doubt they will be any laxing of the regulations, it still will be a controlled substance. Remember that over 15g (personal if your caught) is higher fines and even more jail time than before the regulation.

 

[Sundborg]

I would highly doubt the CF would allow marijuana to be used by its members. The strict rules on them now can clearly state that the CF will still keep the rules.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Grunt is right, it isn‘t decriminalized at all, it just means you don‘t get jail time for small amounts of possession. Police officers don‘t have to fill out as much paperwork or haul your *** in, and perhaps they will even make money on the deal.

It‘s still stupid, and still sends the message that using is "ok" and promotes the idea that individual whims and serving yourself is more important than a strong society.

 

[McInnes]

I actually think taht pot should not be authorised for use in the CF. It still is a drug which lasts in your system. Alcohol is a drug too, except its out of your system by the time you are on duty (well should be anyways). and also, pot does mess up your health. it is the same as smoking tobacco really. The government tells us its worse cuz of filters or whatever, but i think that BS, after all i am born and raised BC. pot is the main reason we‘re not in economic depression really, number 1 cash crop, and overall part of our culture. it is bad for your lungs and what not, if you smoke anything it causes damage to your lungs over periods of time. pot is worse than alcohol if you drink reasonably, if you are always out partyin and getting wasted, than i doubt pot is worse at all.

 

[Etown]

Yes the bill is about decriminalizing possesion of marijuana, but just because something is not a criminal offence doesn‘t mean it is legal. It is not a criminal offence to break the speed limit but it is against the law. The police will no longer be required to arrest people with a couple of joints (this is what is supposed to happen according to the current law), but it will not stop them from taking it away if they catch you with it nor will it prevent them from giving you a ticket.

Most importantly marijuana will still be illegal and any employer can still fire you for using it. The only real benefit is you wont end up with a criminal record for getting caught.

 

[Bert]

The intent of a law, based upon society‘s morals, is to provide an understanding of conduct or responsibility. Since everything can be considered dangerous, like too much vitamin C is toxic, society or the government (since we gave them the responsibility to make the laws)has to figure out the impact of looser ideals on the use of non-medical marijuana.

I‘m not saying that the use of marijuana is the cause of all problems, but EVERY frequent user of marijuana I know (three of them) have all kinds of problems. I would say that the use of marijuana exasterbates (sp?) or amplifies their problems to the point they can‘t often deal with them... from money to work relations to relations with their respective girlfriends. I wonder if decriminalizing the drug would just allow more personal dysfunction to frequent users.

For this, I believe it should stay as a banned substance.

 

[muskrat89]

In my civvie life, amongst other things, I am a Safety Director. I created a "Drug-Free" work place policy, drug testing protocols, etc. - mostly because our Worker‘s Comp Company gives us a discount for having a drug policy, but also because of the CF culture that I lived in, most of my life. Some statistics, from various sources(keeping in mind that they are U.S stats):
Absenteeism - Users 2.5 times more likely to be absent 8+ days/year 2.2 times more likely to request extra time off

Tardiness - 3 times more likely to be late

Safety - 3.6 times more likely to be in a workplace accident

Workers‘ Comp - 5 times more likely to file a claim

Health Insurance - Use 3 times more sick benefits

Company morale - affected by higher theft, selling drugs to co-workers

A survey of drug users seeking help revealed -
75% admitted using on the job
64% admitted drugs hurt their job performance
44% said they sold drugs to other employees
18% said they stole from co-workers to support their habit

Again, don‘t want to dispute the statistics - just want to present a point of view. Another concern is that most pot users, that I have known personally, go on to something bigger and better. Not the type of people I want to be sharing a trench with, frankly..... call me old fashioned :warstory:

 

[Dire]

I just wanted to respond to some comments.


The CF has a policy which must be followed (Im not saying otherwise) It’s there for a reason and they say that your not allowed to smoke Marijuana on or off duty then obviously I wont, but as an retired Marijuana user I can tell you this from my personal experience.

Infanteer: “It also serves as a gateway drug. I have seen alot of people I know who used to be casual users of marijuana start to shift into cocaine and other drugs.”

I’m sorry to say this but that is complete bull****. I have smoked pot for a few years does that make me want t try other drugs? Absolutely not. It isn’t marijuana that makes you switch or try new things it’s the individual who is to weak minded who obviously wanted to try something new or maybe he was per pressured. I myself would never, and I mean never, try a chemical substance nor would I try mushrooms why? Because im not stupid I know those drugs addict and affect you.

You are more likely to try cocaine while drunk then you are stoned. So if you want to say anything is a gateway drug then I would say Alcohol is.

Infanteer: “Don‘t use the "alcohol is worse and is legal" arguement either, because "two wrongs don‘t make a right." Society has enough problems with alcohol abuse, why would we want to compound are problems with another legal, harmful substance. Not the mention that participating in the marijuana game plays you a part in a vile criminal trafficking racket, which means you are putting money into some Hells Angel or Mexican Druglords bank account (making you an accomplice).”

Yes, Society does have a huge enough problem with Alcohol but do you truly believe that Marijuana makes people do bad things? Because it doesn’t. If you look in the history of substance car accidents or even Marijuana car accidents you will only find that the person who caused the accident had Marijuana in his system but he also had a lot of Alcohol in his system. You won’t find Marijuana caused accident with THC being the only substance found in the driver.

I can guarantee you that fights don’t start by someone who just smoked a Joint (that is something from my personal experience but then again everyone is different) Pot Smokers are pretty much all around friendly

But like you said, all this has been debated and debated. The Government made Marijuana illegal because it doesn’t understand it, but look at the progress its making now. The Government is finally realizing that Marijuana might just not be that bad.

I personally never bought of a Mexican drug lord since I would not buy Mexican dirt weed. I’m from BC and BC “personal” growers grow the best. So to answer your question again, I don’t buy off HA members either.

muskrat89:

I do not trust anything that comes from the USA government with the regards to Marijuana. If you want to look for stats turn to your own country man. Canada does way more research with the regards to Marijuana then the states do.

As a Marijuana user I was never late from work nor did I take sick days off. I did not steal from work nor do I steal. I’am very safe, I do not cause accidents. I never and I mean never smoked Marijuana on the job and it never hurt my work performance but then again that servay is about “drugs” and not Marijuana.

But then again it comes down to the individual user. If he’s going to drink, smoke weed, do cocaine every decision he makes comes down to him right?

Lots of different types of people smoke Marijuana from criminals to lawyers to teachers and responsible citizens like myself who never had a criminal record.

I started smoking weed after I tore my ALC in Rugby. My brother is a user and yes, he’s done a few more drugs then just Marijuana but that was because he wanted to try them and realized they were stupid. He told me why he tried them and it was because his friends wanted to do them and wasn’t because he smoked Marijuana

But for myself I took a huge stance on drugs accept for Marijuana since my personal opinion is that Marijuana shouldn’t be classed with the others

Anyhow as of right now I do not smoke, I took a stance like I did with everything else and that the CF doesn’t allow it so I wont do it.

 

[Fusaki]

Like alot of folks, I‘ve dabbled in the recreational use of pot. I‘ve seen enough potheads and I have enough firsthand experience to know that its NOT something I would want to see in use by members of the CF.

When you smoke up, you‘re not going to get in fights, or rob old ladies, or become a heroin addict. You‘re just going to chill out and not care about anything besides pizza and porno. I‘ve been hanging around this forum for a few months now and I know that the folks who‘ve gone somewhere in this military hate slack-a$$ attitudes with a passion.I‘ve always wanted to serve with a highly motivated team, and I know for a fact that weed kills motivation.

I do, however, believe in decriminalization in the civillian legal system. I like what Bert said:

The intent of a law, based upon society‘s morals, is to provide an understanding of conduct or responsibility.

Society‘s morals change with time, so the law must change as well. Pot is a part of mainstream culture. Its on TV, the Radio, Newspapers, and magazines. You could call it modern culture, or you could call it propaghanda. The end result is the same: society is changing (like it always has) to accept the recreational use of marijuana.

 

[muskrat89]

Dire - spoken like a true pothead. There are lots of statistics, from lots of countries that indicate pot IS a gateway drug. You said only "for the weak-minded" I say if you need to spark up a zeppelin to get through the day, you‘re already weak-minded. My statistics didn‘t come from the US Government, either, Cheech - most of them are from private insurance Companies. Companies scrambling for the almighty dollar, and who would not, I assure you, offer any discounts on premiums, unless they had lots of evidence to say it was going to provide a payback - Economics 101, dude. I also did not say these statistics were a reflection of you personally - they are from various studies undertaken by different insurance companies, etc. Not a Gov‘t plot. Speaking of which, how do you know how much research one govt does, compared to another? Sounds a little like paranoid ramblings, to me...you sound just like any other guy with a "downtrodden cause".. all kinds of rantings on why the establishment is wrong

 

[Bringer]

Simple fact is THC remains in the body for much longer than alcohol. Like pretty much everyone, I know a few potsmokers. The ones who use it infrequently are pretty much normal, but the ones who light up daily are useless ****bags. No motivation at all.

If you look in the history of substance car accidents or even Marijuana car accidents you will only find that the person who caused the accident had Marijuana in his system but he also had a lot of Alcohol in his system. You won’t find Marijuana caused accident with THC being the only substance found in the driver.

Did you get this "statistic" from High Times Weekly or something? because it seems incredibly fscked up. Are you trying to say that someone‘s motor skills or judgement are unaffected by marijuana? because that‘s just ridiculous.

 

[klumanth]

i smoke pot every day and i‘m the best soldier ever

 

[muskrat89]

High Times - that‘s funny. Here are some more

From the US Railway Industry - Mid 80s - 50+ train accidents directly attributed to drug use. 37 fatalities, 80 injuries, $34 million in property damage, attributed to drug use

U.S Postal Service - from a 2 year, and a 5 year study - $105 million could have been saved, if drug users testing poitive on pre-employment tests not hired

American Airlines - $19 million loss in one afternoon due to computer error. Computer operator, high on marijuana - crashed the reservation system

Stanford University - pilots in simulators "crashed" immediately after use; "crashed" again, 24 hours later

Anyway, Doobie, I mean Dire I am sure you will have lots of logical arguments to these statements, too. I‘m gonna go eat some chips

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Dire - your entire rant consisted of "I do" "I want" "I can"

I always thought an Army was a team? What about what the Army wants or needs?

Infanteer - I have known only one "really successful" recreational drug user. Wife, family, good job. He‘s the exception. I‘ve not socialized with many drug users, and never while they were actually using it. But I‘ve known and liked some who have, and the ones I liked the most; one woman and one guy in particular - were the least motivated. Heartbreaking, because they were both highly intelligent, and I am not saying there is a cause and effect at play, but it just seems that the ones most likely to use drugs in the first place, are those with the least motivation or respect for the military.

Certainly the case with the two individuals I just mentioned, both of whom I consider good friends. But they have no idea of the military ethos, or understanding of why I would subject myself to a lot of abuse and what to them would be torture, even if only for a weekend at a time.

Funny, because one of them was in the military himself (pipe band, got out when forced to remuster to infantry) and his father had been a high ranking officer and lawyer on civvie street.

 

[Thaedes]

Interesting comments thus far, and I believe this to be an important issue to be discussed. Not because anything will likely change, but it increases awareness and perspectives for people.

Myself, I lived most of my life in Ontario, and the last 4 and a half years in Kingston Ontario (just recently moved out to BC). Anyways, I had a friend who left basic twice for a repeated shoulder injury, and we used to hang out quite a bit. Previously I had tried a joint or two, and found they had no noticable effect on me. (even tried the BC bud, no dif). I‘m kind of a control freak over my body so I‘m not surprised it really didnt‘ have any noticable effects on me.

I‘ve also tried Speed (a methamphetamine), and can honestly say it had a profound effect. I fully agree however with our laws on drugs, they shouldn‘t be endorsed, or tolerated. There are plenty of people who unlike me are more volatile, and more careless, and are willing to abuse these things. Once was enough for me to see that I don‘t want any part of it, and prefer to be free of any drugs that would alter my neurochemistry and neurophysiology, especially when I join the infantry and my decisions will be life and death ones for me and people around me.

We have enough problems with idiots who aren‘t on drugs, let alone to allow them to abuse drugs even further. If your a civillian and you want to smoke a joint in your house go for it, it wont hurt anyone. Keep it private and don‘t abuse it. Go for it. But don‘t ask the police or the law to go easy on you if your caught. you know **** well the consequences of these things.

 

[Armymedic]

For all you in the Army, or who have been in, the basic question regardless of "rights", regardless of law, and any other civilian values, is: Whould you trust a "pothead" with you somewhere where your life is dependant on his response.....

Before you answer, think about the support trades as well...

 

[Dire]

If anyone ever watches Tour of Duty, Zeke Anderson doesnt tolerate potheads lol


I love that show..

 

[Fusaki]

I‘ve always felt that true freedom is the ability to do as much or as little with your life as you would like. The soldier‘s place to to give up the right to be a slacker, and defend the civillian way of life.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Lots of things in the army or that the army does is dangerous. You can argue all day about it, both sides fielding sound arguments. Alcohol hurts you. Second hand smoke hurts you. Continously firing weapons hurts your hearing. All the coffee people drink can‘t be good for your nerves. Messed up inoculations. Always running for PT destroys your knees. The amount of MSG in rations could probably bring the dead back to life.

While im kinda uneducated on the subject, pot does seem to be less harmful then alcohol. I honestly think besides from some ethical arguments the only reason why it is illegal is because the goverment as of yet hasn‘t found a way they can regulate it and make money off it.
Listeing to statistics on how unharmful it is reminds me of my younger brother, whos into lifting weights, go on and on about how steroids aren‘t bad for you and they should be made legal and no one gets hurt from them.
He‘s 20 and on morphine now because of back arthritis, caused from putting too much strain on his back. He can hardly sit through a movie. Steroids itself didn‘t technically hurt him but by taking them he lifted more then his body could handle and now hes 20 and screwed for life.
A gun doesn‘t kill people, people kill people. Why not make pistols and assault rifles legal for people to buy and if they kill someone then all the blame goes to them. That idea may work in a perfect world but people are often very stupid.
When in bosnia two guys i somewhat new were high on pot and thought it would be funny to walk around on their security patrol of the camp with their rifles "loaded" with sandwhich meat. (Stuffed into the magazine and chamber).
It‘s all harmful in one way or another.
Does it make absolute sence that a seemingly worse type of drug is allowed and almost endorsed in the military while a lesser form of one is illegal. Well maybe not. Lots of stuff doesn‘t make sence in the army. I think time is better spent on sorting out the larger issues thats plaguing the forces.