Drug Testing For TF 1-07

[284_226]

Why so cynical?

Experience.

Could it be that only 5% of the forces is that dumb? Or do you enjoy keeping these reporters lurking with more grist for the mill?

On the contrary, the question I asked is important if you want to put things in perspective.  If there was absolutely no warning (other than the standard "you might be tested because you're in the CF"), then I'd have to venture that the 5% is an accurate figure.  If they knew it was coming in the next month, the figure is probably artificially low.  I'm sure a reporter could probably figure that out.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

But that's the point GEO, its still non prescribed drugs and it is against the law. 

Wrong, what is your problem anyway??   You have done nothing but try to make some kind of judgement against the soldiers of today with your insinuations and its getting old really fast. 

"Non prescriped drugs"......pretty much takes 90% of pain reliever's, hemmoroid creams, etc. and most foods off the list of things a soldier can have.
Maybe you should check out the legal definition of 'drug'.

 

[geo]

FWIW, even Ephedrine is not particularly "taboo" while used in Canada.

If you try to bring your own personal "stash" to Kabul/KAF, then you are in trouble.....

 

[Lager and Ale]

My apologize BM, I suppose I should have said, non perscribed controlled substances.  Oops.  My Goof.
As far as the other...NO WAY! ...if anything I admire the boys and girls in uniform...hell, I wish I was still in! 
It just burns me to the quick that a few members who think that they are the exceptions to the rule... and use these substances, without fear of retribution (I would think).  I'm not sure who said it before me...but it's still a trust issue.  Trust within the Forces and trust of the public toward the Forces. 
And Yes, I agree, that a majority of the support for the Troops is still high, but IMHO, I would think there would be a few points taken off because of this. 
It just sounds like the military is trying to hide this or make it irrelevant by not publishing the findings quickly.

The soap box is free...I stand down.

 

[GUNS]

Lager, I seriously doubt the military was trying to hide anything.Most likely, they were confronted with a situation they were not expecting.

The initial high figures were drastically reduced when the soldiers tested provided the necessary information to clear them ie: Dr's note, had been to Dentist.

I agree with Geo's post, if the military would make the extra effort and re-test the 5%, they may well be able to lower that number .

 

[GO!!!]

284_226

The only reason oral ephedrine is a controlled substance is that it is an ingredient in the manufacture of crystal meth (along with 5-10 other chemicals)

It is the active ingredient in such legal and safe supplements as hydroxycut, Zantrac, Thermaburn etc.

It's a performance enhancer, increasing metabolic rate, LOC, and heart rate for a short period of time, much like caffeine. Considering that it keeps you awake and alert - I would have no objections to the guy next to me in a trench taking it in moderation, provided he was drinking sufficient water to avoid the dehydration it can cause.

Should you doubt me, all of the above are sold at Canex, right next to the creatine and protein powders.

 

[geo]

Unfortunately, when you take a lot of the Ephedrine, you can suffer some behavioral problems, increased aggressiveness - taking risks that should not be taken,... and that's not a good thing.

 

[APOLLOVet]

I think that we might be getting a little away from the point by getting into the weeds with conjectures about ephedrine and other substances sold at CANEX.

Remember, one of the standard lines in every joining instruction that I have seen, and every deployment order is that troops will not self-medicate. Period. This includes aspirin, hemmorhoid cream, ephedrine, sudafed, etc. There are two reasons for this. One, if soldiers are not allowed to self-medicate, even with over-the-counter (OTC) medications we can lessen the risk of accidental overdose, as they will be getting dosage instructions from the MO/pharmacist. Also, this means that we know that they are not mixing potentially harmful substances when taken in combination (ask a nurse about the combination of Tylenol and alcohol. While it will not get you immediately, it is murder on your liver, and can become extremely serious).
Second, and far more importantly, by forbidding self-medication, we ensure that soldiers get professional attention for their injuries. How many times have you heard stories about people who thought that they just had sore muscles, and later find out that they had serious tendon or ligament injuries. Self-medication will mask the symptoms, and allow aggravation of the injury.

Finally, and most importantly, I will come back to my (far) earlier post about trust. I give orders every day at work. I do this both in garrison, and on operations. I trust that my orders will be carried out, just as my superiors trust that I will carry out their orders. My subordinates trust that I will consider their welfare properly in the execution of any orders that I receive, and that I will consider their welfare properly in any plans that I might come up with. We all trust that the person on our flank is properly trained to do his job, and is physically, mentally, and emotionally fit to carry out his duties. I trust that they will save my life if necessary, and they trust that I will do the same for them.

I do NOT trust anyone who disregards the simplest of orders with respect to drugs, whether OTC or controlled. If you are in the CF, you are not allowed to partake. Period. It is black and white. If you do, and even if I am unsuccessful in trying to make you answer for your actions to the fullest extent possible IAW CF policy, QR&O, and the Criminal Code, I no longer trust you and will not have anything to do with you if at all possible (Obviously I am using the genric "you", and not anyone specific).

Again, I don't want to get into a debate about what should and should not be allowed, nor do I wish to get into debates about what is an acceptable number of users for the CF. I agree that alcohol is just as much of a problem for the CF as are controlled substances, with the sole exception that alcohol is legal. I have seen marked changes in the acceptance of alcohol over the past twenty years, and we may eventually place it in the same boat as drugs in the CF, buit for the present time it is still legal.

The key issue is trust. We all agreed to be drug-free; these individuals decided not to be, and will face the consequences of their decisions.

 

[armyvern]

Well,

I just got my OTC card (Over the Counter Medication Card) so that I can walk into the drug store to get Aspiran, cold medicine, sudafed, never needed hemmorhoid cream, etc etc. It was issued to me. I don't pay, I just go in and get what I need and the billing goes through the card.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Apollovet,
Please tell me that you meant that WHEN the troops are deployed........not back in garrison doing a workup.

Please tell me that you TRUST your men/women enough to take aspirin, apply cream etc., otherwise,....wow...

 

[APOLLOVet]

I see your point (to a certain extent). However, I still stand by my point of the fact that we are not allowed to self-medicate. I imagine that you had to go to the MIR to get the card, and I also imagine that you are not allowed to load up a barrack box with whatever you wish to take with you on tour?

I also still stand by my earlier point about trust, whether with respect to OTC medications or controlled substances. Once you are ordered not to do something, it is not optional as to whether you follow that order or not. If you (and again, I am using a generic "you", not anyone specific) feel that an order is ridiculous, there are ways to challenge that order.

I remember a time where an individual was ordered to man a defensive position (on deployed operations), and he decided that he didn't want to do that. So, he just got up and walked away, leaving that part of the line open. If that isn't a breach of trust based on disobeying an order (which is what I understand the point of this thread to be), I don't know what is. I feel that someone using prohibited substances after they have been ordered not to to be in the same classification.

 

[APOLLOVet]

Mr Monkhouse,

From my earlier post:


Remember, one of the standard lines in every joining instruction that I have seen, and every deployment order is that troops will not self-medicate.


I am not referring to everyday life in garrison WRT standard OTC medications. I do trust soldiers to look after themselves properly. What I am trying to say (poorly, apparently) is that the central fact of the drug testing for TFs is a trust issue. It is not even primarily a trust issue for the chain of command in my opinion; I think that the soldiers of the TF feel better after the tests knowing that those who are using controlled substances have been removed from the tour.

My apologies if I have expressed myself unclearly 

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Thanks for clearing that up.........turns out we totally agree.

[I have always had a rather large "sore spot" for grown adults not being treated that way at times, and for that I too apoligize]

 

[armyvern]

I see your point (to a certain extent). However, I still stand by my point of the fact that we are not allowed to self-medicate. I imagine that you had to go to the MIR to get the card, and I also imagine that you are not allowed to load up a barrack box with whatever you wish to take with you on tour?

Nope I didn't go to the MIR. I filled in the paperwork and sent it in. There is no MIR here. I've taken asprin and other OTC stuff on tour with me before (and my kits been searched - and it was not seized - nor did I hear any flack about it). It is legal and it is over-the-counter after all.

 

[Big Red]

Unfortunately, when you take a lot of the Ephedrine, you can suffer some behavioral problems, increased aggressiveness - taking risks that should not be taken,... and that's not a good thing.

I've never heard of this or seen it and I've worked with many people using Hydroxycut.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Hydroxycut hasn't used ephidrene for about 2 years now........which is why it doesn't work as well [if at all] as it used too.

...and take it from someone who used the 'stack' on and off for a few years. The shakes and aggressiveness are side effects.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

..and for the record, no, I would severally frown on any ephedrine use under the circumstances that you face over there.

 

[paracowboy]

I've never heard of this or seen it and I've worked with many people using Hydroxycut.

depends on the individual and the dosage, but yeah, it happens. BTDT

 

[medicineman]

There is an issue of taking some OTC's and even some "herbal/natural health" remedies while in theatre.  ASA (aspirin) for certain and other non-steroidal anti-inflammatory agents to varying degrees can impair the abillity of your blood to clot.  ASA inhibits platellet agglutination (sticking together to form a plug) for 7 days post discontinuation, hence the reason we give it to people before, after and while they're having a heart attack - to prevent a clot from getting worse.  Other agents, garlic oil for one, have a similar effect.  In fact, one of the things taught in TCCC is not to use anti-inflammatory agents in theatre for that reason.  So, as you might well imagine, we'd get a little edgy about people taking stuff without our knowledge or blessing in theatre.  I'm not even going to go into some of the other things that people take.

MM