Do Canadian soldiers use the PRC 117 radio?
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Here is the different radio currently used by Canadian Soldiers :
-Combat Net Radio (Primary) or CNR(P)
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/2_0_61.asp?uSubSection=61&uSection=3
-Light Assault Radio (LAR)
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/2_0_63.asp?uSubSection=63&uSection=3
-Combat Net Radio (High Frequency) or CNR (HF)
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/2_0_60.asp?uSubSection=60&uSection=3
-Air/Ground/Air Radio (A/G/A Radio)
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/2_0_59.asp?uSubSection=59&uSection=3
-Combat Net Radio (Primary) or CNR(P)
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/2_0_61.asp?uSubSection=61&uSection=3
-Light Assault Radio (LAR)
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/2_0_63.asp?uSubSection=63&uSection=3
-Combat Net Radio (High Frequency) or CNR (HF)
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/2_0_60.asp?uSubSection=60&uSection=3
-Air/Ground/Air Radio (A/G/A Radio)
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/2_0_59.asp?uSubSection=59&uSection=3
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You'll never see the bottom two unless you join the air force or work in a BDE CP.
The top one is called the AN/PRC-522 set and everyone calls it a 522.
The second one is called the AN/PRC-521 set and everyone calls it a 521. This piece of kit is garbage, by the way.
The top one is called the AN/PRC-522 set and everyone calls it a 522.
The second one is called the AN/PRC-521 set and everyone calls it a 521. This piece of kit is garbage, by the way.
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BKells said:
You have no need to see HF radios in the infantry, or really, any trade outside signals anyway, as it's for strategic communcations, not tactical communications. We sigs types use them though, often.
Reference the 521, if nothing else, it's virtually indestructible... not quite a PRC77, but still...
Michael Dorosh
Army.ca Veteran
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I've had only limited contact with signals equipment on exercises, but having done my share of duty in "battalion" CPs and a little bit of experience in an infantry company headquarters, I have to say I was shocked by how little, apparently, has changed since the 1st British Airborne Division landed at Arnhem Bridge with completely sucky signals equipment.
The 77 sets - upgraded Vietnam era radios - seemed unable to operate in Wainwright - which is a lot of prairie land - without a boost from a ground mount antenna. Our CSM was a Jimmy at heart, I think, and gave me a lesson in wire splicing on one ex, in addition to building his fav antenna mast.
On our driver wheeled course, all the instructors brought cel phones - I realize the need for crypto stuff in modern comms equipment, but it is beyond me how we can't get radios to function with the same ease as a cel phone?
The 522 sets are great - unless only one person in your regiment "has the course". I know I've whined about this before, but I'll say again - why couldn't they design it with intuitive switches like ON or OFF or VOLUME or CHANNEL X..... ;D
I haven't used the "new" stuff enough to have an informed opinion, though I was a bit alarmed on an exercise about a year ago in which I was tasked to man a RRB site - on top of a very large hill out west in the foothills of the Rocky Mountains - thinking that "hey, these new radios are NEW so they must be LIGHTER." Of course, while the 521s are more man-portable, the 522 is most user unfriendly in hilly country...
I almost felt sorry for the poor Privates I made carry all that shit up to the top of the hill. >
The 77 sets - upgraded Vietnam era radios - seemed unable to operate in Wainwright - which is a lot of prairie land - without a boost from a ground mount antenna. Our CSM was a Jimmy at heart, I think, and gave me a lesson in wire splicing on one ex, in addition to building his fav antenna mast.
On our driver wheeled course, all the instructors brought cel phones - I realize the need for crypto stuff in modern comms equipment, but it is beyond me how we can't get radios to function with the same ease as a cel phone?
The 522 sets are great - unless only one person in your regiment "has the course". I know I've whined about this before, but I'll say again - why couldn't they design it with intuitive switches like ON or OFF or VOLUME or CHANNEL X..... ;D
I haven't used the "new" stuff enough to have an informed opinion, though I was a bit alarmed on an exercise about a year ago in which I was tasked to man a RRB site - on top of a very large hill out west in the foothills of the Rocky Mountains - thinking that "hey, these new radios are NEW so they must be LIGHTER." Of course, while the 521s are more man-portable, the 522 is most user unfriendly in hilly country...
I almost felt sorry for the poor Privates I made carry all that shit up to the top of the hill. >
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Just a Sig Op said:
Umm, last time I checked, the 138 is in use with the infantry. The entire mission in Ethiopia/Eritrea used them. The Airborne used to use the 515 set (the old manpack HF). I'm quite sure that all of the various unit CPs have them. Just because something is HF doesn't mean its a strategic communications system. What if you have to talk further than the range of your VHF nets, and have no RRB? What if you want to run an HF guard net - which we used to do quite often with the 106 set, as a backup to the VHF bde comd net.
Not to say that the 138 can't do strategic level comms, but to blatantly say "you have no need to see them" is a bit much.
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Michael Dorosh said:
I remember hearing somewhere about some troops in Iraq (British, I think, but not 100% sure) using Motorolas to communicate with each other. They later got ambushed because the enemy was able to hear their conversation. I mean, sure, it's easier to use civilian technology, but what good is that when you're dead?
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Exactly, thats why non-military radios are not used in Afghanistan. The PRR (personal role radio) that gets used is basically a militarized FRS radio. It works quite well.
Hopefully they are being used in training now here in Canada. The only reason we ever used civilian comms (and ONLY on exercise), was because the military equivalent was garbage.
Hopefully they are being used in training now here in Canada. The only reason we ever used civilian comms (and ONLY on exercise), was because the military equivalent was garbage.
Michael Dorosh
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signalsguy said:
None of which answers the question. Why is the military stuff garbage?
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I have a few theories on that.
1. It tends to be made by the lowest bidder, hence cheaper parts to lower the cost.
2. More often then not the Gov't seems to buy things based on can it be made in canada and by someone in XY's Constituency... ie: LSVW, Griffon....
anywho, we do have some great bang on equipment, but unfortunatley any kind of low level comms stuff is not it... i know we just did a weekend road move with the 521's and each vehicle had an FRS Radio as well, just in case the 521 didnt work, which on day one, was all of them, and day two was every radio in packet 1...
I agree the 522's are great.. or would be if i could figure out how to use them....
anywho, just my .02
1. It tends to be made by the lowest bidder, hence cheaper parts to lower the cost.
2. More often then not the Gov't seems to buy things based on can it be made in canada and by someone in XY's Constituency... ie: LSVW, Griffon....
anywho, we do have some great bang on equipment, but unfortunatley any kind of low level comms stuff is not it... i know we just did a weekend road move with the 521's and each vehicle had an FRS Radio as well, just in case the 521 didnt work, which on day one, was all of them, and day two was every radio in packet 1...
I agree the 522's are great.. or would be if i could figure out how to use them....
anywho, just my .02
Ex Ranger Instructor
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The PRC 521 isn't a great radio. It is however a lot better than most people think. Here are some common reasons why people fail to get adequate comms when using the 521:
1. Squelch Setting or Tx Tone Set incorrectly: I don't know why people want to constantly fiddle with these settings, but they do. Squelch on the 521 is noise operated. If some genius sets the threshold too high, then the radio will not recognize incoming intelligent signals, and will instead think that they are just white noise that needs to get filtered out. The default is 8db, and the default setting is fine. The tx tone needs to be set to 150 Hz in order for the thing to be compatible with other NATO radios. 150 Hz also happens to be the default setting, so just leave it alone.
2. Finger problems when programming: The PRC 521 IUCE (programming box) is not user friendly, and programming can easily go awry as a result. Unless the thing is set to the same frequency as the next radio, problems will invariably occur. Use a laptop with the Frequency Fill Software on it to program your radio, vice doing it manually with the IUCE. The FFS is simple and user friendly, and if you do make a mistake, you'll be able to see it right away. Overall, you'll find your results are much, much better. Once one radio has been properly programmed in that manner, use a cloning cable to make your other radios identical. Programming and the lack thereof is the single biggest cause of poor comms when using these radios.
3. Attempting to use the set for purposes for which it was never designed: Nominal range of the 521 on high power when using the 1M blade antenna is 3.0 Km. Actual range will depend on battery power, terrain, conductivity of the ground, and condition of the set itself. You will almost never get 3 Km out of it though. Accept that fact, and don't try and use it as your lone means of communications when on patrol 5+ Km from your patrol base. I've seen that happen too many times.
Anyway, I'm not trying to say that the 521 is a great set. It definitely isn't. But it works much better when properly programmed and operated, and in my experience it would seem that there aren't enough people who know how to do that.
1. Squelch Setting or Tx Tone Set incorrectly: I don't know why people want to constantly fiddle with these settings, but they do. Squelch on the 521 is noise operated. If some genius sets the threshold too high, then the radio will not recognize incoming intelligent signals, and will instead think that they are just white noise that needs to get filtered out. The default is 8db, and the default setting is fine. The tx tone needs to be set to 150 Hz in order for the thing to be compatible with other NATO radios. 150 Hz also happens to be the default setting, so just leave it alone.
2. Finger problems when programming: The PRC 521 IUCE (programming box) is not user friendly, and programming can easily go awry as a result. Unless the thing is set to the same frequency as the next radio, problems will invariably occur. Use a laptop with the Frequency Fill Software on it to program your radio, vice doing it manually with the IUCE. The FFS is simple and user friendly, and if you do make a mistake, you'll be able to see it right away. Overall, you'll find your results are much, much better. Once one radio has been properly programmed in that manner, use a cloning cable to make your other radios identical. Programming and the lack thereof is the single biggest cause of poor comms when using these radios.
3. Attempting to use the set for purposes for which it was never designed: Nominal range of the 521 on high power when using the 1M blade antenna is 3.0 Km. Actual range will depend on battery power, terrain, conductivity of the ground, and condition of the set itself. You will almost never get 3 Km out of it though. Accept that fact, and don't try and use it as your lone means of communications when on patrol 5+ Km from your patrol base. I've seen that happen too many times.
Anyway, I'm not trying to say that the 521 is a great set. It definitely isn't. But it works much better when properly programmed and operated, and in my experience it would seem that there aren't enough people who know how to do that.
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The 117 is a wide, multi-band AGA radio, VFH FM to UHF AM (about 30-512MHz, IIRC). I believe our AGA radio is also known as the PRC-113...which is essentially a a VHF-AM and UHF-AM multiband radio (115-150, 225-400 MHz, note no FM like the 117). I know that the AGA in part replaced the PRC-66 (UHF, 225-400MHz only) but I can not remember what the VHF AM AGA 'brother' to the UHF PRC-66 was.
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willy said:
Supposedly, there's a version of the 521 available with a keypad, but it wasn't purchased, because it was slightly more expensive...
That being said, reference your point #2, I've always found that when it's actually needed, a laptop is *always* unavailable.
Reference #3, while you are right, I once had a 521 that couldn't reach the CP we were gaurding, 500m away. It could establish comms with the 522 set we had on site, which in turn could reach the CP, but the 521 itself just couldn't do it... on high power... with the blade antenna. Probably some sort of freak circumstance, but still. We eventually gave up and ran a field phone.
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Just a Sig Op said:
I'm curious.....did you check the 'serviceability' of your kit....especially your connections? I have found antennas that have been missing connecting 'clips' or a tiny pieces here or there that may have gone unnoticed. With a broken antenna/connection you may be able to talk to the guy beside you, but not have any range over 50 ft. Just a thought.
GW
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Quotes from Just a Sig Op,
once had a 521 that couldn't reach the CP we were gaurding, 500m away.
We eventually gave up and ran a field phone.
Just nit-picking here but from everything I was taught, [and teached], shouldn't the running of the field phone have been the main priority?....we haven't fallen this far have we?
once had a 521 that couldn't reach the CP we were gaurding, 500m away.
We eventually gave up and ran a field phone.
Just nit-picking here but from everything I was taught, [and teached], shouldn't the running of the field phone have been the main priority?....we haven't fallen this far have we?
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Servicbility of kit -
Yes, of course the radio was checked, and appeared to be in working order.
Use of Field Phones -
This was a silly logistics issue. They wouldn't give us field phones, but they would give us a 521. After that didn't work, we were given field phones, but they wouldn't give us wire. So they were convinced to give us a 522. If you tell me it was silly, you're preaching to the choir... as I know it was silly. All I could do though was sit there, gaurd the gate, and sigh. After a couple of days, somone of sufficient rank to point out how silly it was saw to it that we had wire.
Yes, of course the radio was checked, and appeared to be in working order.
Use of Field Phones -
This was a silly logistics issue. They wouldn't give us field phones, but they would give us a 521. After that didn't work, we were given field phones, but they wouldn't give us wire. So they were convinced to give us a 522. If you tell me it was silly, you're preaching to the choir... as I know it was silly. All I could do though was sit there, gaurd the gate, and sigh. After a couple of days, somone of sufficient rank to point out how silly it was saw to it that we had wire.
L
LCMM
Guest
We do not really use the Harris Corporation AN/PRC-117F yet although both the Air Force and Army have bought a few to trial and for specific operations. It has a lot of options including being able to set up a secure freqency hopping net with the US Army's SINGARS. It can also do Have Quick hopping but the one thing it cannot do is CNR(P) hopping so it is not completely compatible with our primary VHF radio. Trying to fully integrate it with the Iris Communication System will be a challenge. The current A/G/A radio used by the Canadian Army is the RT-1319 as shown by the link someone else posted. It is a good radio, but is no longer sold or even supported. As they break, I expect we will gradually start replacing them with the 117F.
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