Divining the right role, capabilities, structure, and Regimental System for Canada's Army Reserves

[Desert Fox]

Careful about generalizations. Reserve OCs, CSM's, Pl Comds and Pl WOs do deploy.  It's been done before.  It's being done now (KAF D&S Pls) and it will be done again, quite possibly on a much larger scale than we're accustomed to seeing.

A lot of Reg F rifle coys aren't much better off these days.

Ok, you are right. of the 2000 Canadian in Afghanistan apx 200 or so are reserve, and you've sited that the D+S PL WO is Res. (I have buddies in that platoon right now)

Thus far my generalization is pretty accurate. 1 for 2000.... heck even if there was 3, the point is pretty clear.... they tend not to deploy in such a capacity.

Roto 13 in Bosnia is an exception as well, when a Res Coy went over... and on the point you make refering to it likley more common in the future... we're looking at a Coy of Res at a given time... so again.... 1 Maj, a few Capt/Lts 1 CSM and 3 WO.....  or about 1/3 of my Res Units higher ups.... multiplied by the countless res units out there... drops in the bucket....

 

[George Wallace]

Thus far my generalization is pretty accurate. 1 for 2000.... heck even if there was 3, the point is pretty clear.... they tend not to deploy in such a capacity.

Actually, not to nit pick, you are way off in your generalization of 1 for 2000.  There are not 2000 WO's in theatre.  Perhaps there are between 25 and 50, and that is being very generous.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

There's also a lot of agumentees, (CIMIC, PHSYOPS, HUMINT, etc) that are WOs' and above filling those spots.

 

[Desert Fox]

George, you have greatly mis-quoted me...

I said THERE ARE "2000 CANADIANS" IN AFGHANISTAN  which is actually very close to the true figure, as there is about 250 deployed to Camp Mirage in support of TFA, give you the total of 2200-2300

So we have 2000 Canadians in A-stan, and going along with the point raised by Haggis, regarding the D+S PL having a Res Force PL WO...

What I said was that, even with 2000 Canadian in Afghanistan right now, there is probably 1 (heck lets push it, maybe 2, even 3) WO from the Res Force who are currently filling the position of Pl 2IC.

As i stated before, there is many Res Force members there now, and probaby a handful of WO, however they are not in PL 2IC positions, as this relates back to earlier discussion regarding top heavy reserve units and higher ups not serving the "typical" function of there rank overseas..

Ie. Res Lt. who would normaly be a Pl Cmd in the Res world go as CIMIC ops, or staff officers, etc etc... and  not as Pl Cmd.....  




I know damn well the army is top heavy... but not that damn heavy....

 

[Fishbone Jones]

If you got rid of all the people at the top, you lower guys would have to take the responsibility for all the fuck ups. Instead of blaming it on the highers, for a change. ;D

 

[Desert Fox]

I'm not advocating a Stalin inspired purge of the army's leadership.... im not that bitter.... LOL....

 

[The Rifleman]

Desert Fox

A TA battalion is made up the same way as a regular battalion - Fire Support Company (anti tank, mortar, recce & machine gun platoons), HQ Company (signal & MT platoons, sections of assault pioneers, cooks, provosts, int cell, admin. etc) and three (sometimes four) Rifle Companies.

However, the Rifle Companies are only allowed to recruit two of three platoons as the third is intended for regular reserves if called up in a time of emergency. The Company does have a full HQ and is also allowed to recruit "spare" SNCOs (reserves do not always turn up for exercises due to other commitments (family & work) and it ensures proper command & control - you can never have enough sergeants!)

The London Regiment is now the only oddity in that the companies are named after Regiments - City of London Fusiliers, London Irish Rifles, London Scottish and Queens Regiment.

As for unit locations, sometimes a Drill Hall (I think you call them Armouries?) will only have a Platoon. This is so that TA centres keep local (Territorial) and reduces travel costs. It also ensures that the buildings are kept on strength as they are valuable real estate assetts.


At present in Iraq & the Stan TA Force Protection Companies are deployed to carry out some of the more mundane tasks such as guarding HQs, escorting civvies & aid agencies, and carrying out vehicle check points. These companies are usually made up from volunteers from whole battalions. Some TA soldiers do volunteer to make up the numbers in regular battalions and are normally well recieved. TA Signals & Engineers also provide company strength units, but Yeomanry (the old Gentleman Cavalry Volunteers) provide IRs (individual Replacements) as they are trained as crewmen for tanks or recce vehicles.

 

[GAP]

Canada's reservists to be eligible for pension
Updated Thu. Dec. 21 2006 11:06 PM ET CTV.ca News Staff
Article Link

Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor announced today that Canada's reservists will be able to contribute to and receive pension plan benefits starting in the new year.

As many as 8,500 reservists may now qualify to be included in the Canada Pension Plan and establishing reservist pensions has been an issue many of them have been fighting for.

"This is the CPP (Canada Pension Plan) that every worker in Canada pays into and, as a result, is able to collect upon retirement," CTV's David Akin, who was first to report the news, told Newsnet from Ottawa.

In a news release, O'Connor is quoted as saying that the government made this change "because we believe that all Reservists should be able to collect a pension that will allow them to build for retirement and provide their families with basic financial protection."

"Canada's New Government is proud of the brave men and women who serve our country daily and this amendment is another example of our commitment to support them."

Gen. Rick Hillier, the Chief of Defence Staff, called the announcement "excellent news" for reservists. "Whether Canadians choose to serve full-time or part-time in the CF, they will be able to start building upon their CPP pension and create a more secure future," he added.
More on link

 

[George Wallace]

George, you have greatly mis-quoted me...

Sorry.  I quoted you directly from this:

Ok, you are right. of the 2000 Canadian in Afghanistan apx 200 or so are reserve, and you've sited that the D+S PL WO is Res. (I have buddies in that platoon right now)

Thus far my generalization is pretty accurate. 1 for 2000.... heck even if there was 3, the point is pretty clear.... they tend not to deploy in such a capacity.

Roto 13 in Bosnia is an exception as well, when a Res Coy went over... and on the point you make refering to it likley more common in the future... we're looking at a Coy of Res at a given time... so again.... 1 Maj, a few Capt/Lts 1 CSM and 3 WO.....   or about 1/3 of my Res Units higher ups.... multiplied by the countless res units out there... drops in the bucket....

It is plain as the nose on your face that you said, refering to WO's; "1 for 2000.... heck even if there was 3, the point is pretty clear.... they tend not to deploy in such a capacity."  I pointed out that there were more likely 25 to 50 WO's, tops (again not the 2000 that you claimed above).   So the percentage of Reserve WO's is much greater than what you are complaining about.  It indeed looks like there is a very high percentage of Reservists filling higher ranks, if you look at percentages by rank, not as you have done, by total Force.

You are crying and bending stats to make your point.  I am saying your point is false due to your faulty use of statistics.

 

[Haggis]

Roto 13 in Bosnia is an exception as well, when a Res Coy went over... and on the point you make refering to it likley more common in the future... we're looking at a Coy of Res at a given time... so again.... 1 Maj, a few Capt/Lts 1 CSM and 3 WO.....   or about 1/3 of my Res Units higher ups.... multiplied by the countless res units out there... drops in the bucket....

The Reserve Coy started out at 120 all ranks with another 30 in the HQ Sqn D&S Platoon and 13 detached to CIMIC etc..  If you look beyond the Cbt A, almost 30% of Roto 13 was Reservists with one LCol, several Majors, Capts, Lts and at least three MWOs that I know of personally in quite senior and important positions.  Roto 14 approached 50%.

Presently there are Reserve Majors, Capt, Lts, a CWO, WOs and Sgts (note I used pluralisms) serving in Afghanistan.  In order to be objective you must look beyond just the Battle Group to see the whole pictuire of Reserve augmentation on any mission.

There is more than one mission going on.  If your unit's "higher ups" want to deploy, they can probably get a spot on a mission.

 

[The Rifleman]

Well the UK Reserves (all services) don't get a pension - or medical care & dental care (unless they are mobilised). If they are wounded on ops they are repatriated - discharged - and they have to make an appointment with the local hospital for after care (or in some cases for further operations)

 

[Haggis]

Well the UK Reserves (all services) don't get a pension - or medical care & dental care (unless they are mobilised). If they are wounded on ops they are repatriated - discharged - and they have to make an appointment with the local hospital for after care (or in some cases for further operations)

Well that certainly sucks!!

 

[Desert Fox]

Yes Georege it is clear, you quoted directly, however you missed my point....

1  Reserve WO in the role of PL2IC
Even thou there are 2000 troops on the ground.....
Even thou there are several Res higher ups there, few are in command position...

When i was in Kabul in 2005... there was a plethora of Res Force WO/Officers filling vital tasks, CIMIC, FST, Staff Officer Positions....

However they did not deploy as Infantry platoon cmd/2IC, or Company Cmd.... There was a LCol who was the CO of a Toronto Area Regt who was part of CIMIC, who dropped in rank to Maj and commanded the 12 person CIMIC team....      Majors normally command more then 12 people....   



[Inserted after initial post]

RIFLEMAN

- Thanks for the info, Cheers!

 

[George Wallace]

When i was in Kabul in 2005... there was a plethora of Res Force WO/Officers filling vital tasks, CIMIC, FST, Staff Officer Positions....

However they did not deploy as Infantry platoon cmd/2IC, or Company Cmd.... There was a LCol who was the CO of a Toronto Area Regt who was part of CIMIC, who dropped in rank to Maj and commanded the 12 person CIMIC team....      Majors normally command more then 12 people....   

I am still not that impressed with your arguments.  To me they really are insignificant and irrelevant.  The examples you are quoting are for one Tour, but do not cover the wider timeframe.

As for a LCol taking a drop down to Maj to do a Tour; is that anything new for Reservists?  No.  It happens at all rank levels.  As for a Major commanding 12 people; that is also an irrelevant issue.  He commanded a CIMIC Team.  What was that team made up of?  Could most of them have been Capt's, Lt's, and MWO's, most of, if not all, them being Reservists. 

I really see nothing substantial in your arguments.  There are Trades that are filling 50% or more of taskings on Tour.  Your example of the Convoy Comd and his Escort was 100% Reservists.  Get over it.

 

[Desert Fox]

We're looking at the issue from two diffrent angles, and i see no point on continuing with it.

My point related back to previous comments regarding CWO/RSM and Maj/Coy Cmd from Res force never/very seldomly deploying in such a capacity.

CIMIC is a Reserve task, meaning that the norm is that all CIMIC pers are Res Force. (I'm sure there could be the odd exception to this)

 

[Haggis]

My point related back to previous comments regarding CWO/RSM and Maj/Coy Cmd from Res force never/very seldomly deploying in such a capacity.

The point others are trying to make (me included) is that there are presently limited opportunities for for senior Reservists to deploy in their rank and trade in the Combat Arms.  For those that want to go, there are out-of-trade oppourtunities in CIMIC, PsyOps, HUMINT, J Staffs, OMLTs etc. etc. as well as in over a dozen other missions than Afghanistan.

CIMIC is a Reserve task, meaning that the norm is that all CIMIC pers are Res Force. (I'm sure there could be the odd exception to this)

As George mentioned, some capabilities (such as CIMIC) are wholly or overwhelmingly Reserve.

Lastly it's unfair and misleading for you to state that that Reserve LCols/Majs/CWOs/MWOs never deploy.  They do and they will continue to do so.  It's been shown to you already and you're just not getting it.

 

[captainj]

Great thread. Let us also not forget those LCol/Majors/CWO's/MWO's "who will never deploy" are indeed contributing to the mission as gatekeepers. They are the leadership/administrators of the Reserves who do indeed deploy and do so often when called upon without any question. Indeed most area HQ's are manned with 30%-50% (depending on the Area) reservists getting the TF out the door and yes repatriatiing the casualty's. As pointed out many who deploy take a drop in rank, indeed many take a drop in pay not only leaving a civilian job but also some loose a pay grade or two just to deploy thanks a bunch.

You know it is funny as we sit here hammering good old Desert Fox. I am an AO to a really badly wounded Reservist and with him is a really badly wounded Reg. These two chaps come as a pair kind of like kittens. They support each other and have a bond that is amazing. I do not see any difference all I see is two troops fighting hard to stand up. I think we should keep our eye on the ball.

Desert Fox face it the Regs need the Reserves as much as the Reserves need the Regs. Things have changed we are all in it together this sort of us and them serves no one. While I agree perhaps the Reserves need some tuning be careful for what you wish for it may come true. I wonder what would happen if every Reservist on contract both deployed and holding positions especially at HQ's were to give their notice. How much mayham would that cause. Don't worry it will never happen because those guys that work side by side with their Reg counterpart (not getting PLD and 15% less) have way too much character. By the way I was one of those guys who with PBI way back when had similar ideas re folding units. Age gives you wisdom

 

[captainj]

I know you didn't really mean hammer him poor choice of words on my part. I fully agree with you re command selection. Clearly a case of avocation vs vocation. I guess what I am really saying is when these kids are knocked down they are all the same Reg or Reserve and the bonding is at its very best. I only wish some of the Reserve Reg bashers and indeed the Reg Reserve bashers could see these fellows at their most venerable. It puts it all in perspective that we are a small Army that need each other especially now.

In point of fact when I was a MWO it was hard, real hard to get a tour. Now that I am a Capt there are tours a plenty. Everyone points to ROTO 13 as the example. I would suggest we would have been pooched even more so on ROTO 14 if it wasn't for those Reservists. I know I was asked would you go, within 12 days I was in theatre (didn't even get embarkation leave oh well). Sometimes it is all about time and space. Often you see Reg force LCol/Col/MWO's/CWO's with little or no gongs except for the SSM and CD. This isn't because they didn't want to deploy again a issue of time and space. Gee I wonder how many Reservists are doing the Biz back home teaching Reg BMQ's,  Battle Schools and doing the trenchwork in Borden looking after those poor devils we call Pat's. My point is the Army is like a orchestra we all have our instrument to play and we cannot afford to be fighting each other these days.

 

[Haggis]

Everyone points to ROTO 13 as the example. I would suggest we would have been pooched even more so on ROTO 14 if it wasn't for those Reservists.

Rotos 11 through 14 also proved that we, as an Army, don't adequately prepare our soldiers medically, dentally or administratively.  DAGging those rotos took a disproparionate amount of time, effort and money which could have bneen spent on training.  This isn 't the fault of the Reservist or the Reserve units as thay have little say in what, if any, support is granted to them by the support bases.  In most cases, the support base will not give you kit, a permanent I card, shots, a medical or dental until you have a tasking message to show.  You don't get a tasking message until you DAG green.  You can't DAG Green until you have your shots, I card, dental, etc. etc.  Catch 22.

 

[captainj]

Couldn't agree more it was like pulling teeth just to get kit and I DAGGED Green. It is really difficult as a individual augmentee from outside the area basically you are on your own at times.