Would you mind sharing your apparently wealthy experience in Leadership with us ???Originally posted by gate_guard:
[qb] There are no bad troops, just bad leaders and discipline is a tool for leaders to use. It most cases, disciplinary actions would be prevented if leaders were doing there job. [/qb]
You talk like a union representativeThere are no bad troops, just bad leaders
I disagree, I think this statement arises from the other 20%. The middle group will do what you tell them regardless. It is challenging the switched on, piss and vinegar types and boot****ing the retards where a leader proves he can bring his section together. If he can‘t, no matter the level of competence in the section, they will underperform. Infanteer, prime example is a guy who didn‘t quite make it onto our tour (leader type). There was nothing wrong with his troops, he failed in his duties as a leader, plain and simple.Originally posted by Infanteer:
[qb]
10% of guys who are extrememly motivated and will do well without supervision. These guys usually tend to congregate in the professional, high-speed organizations
and
10% who are bags of **** who need constant supervision and take up 90% of the leadership‘s efforts. In really good units these guys usually can‘t cut it and are sent off somewhere else where the damage they can cause is migitated.
Finally
The other 80% will be squared away under the proper motivation and good leadership, or experience poor morale and less than satisfactory effort if they suffer under poor leadership. I think this 80% is wehere the somewhat inaccurate dictum "There are no poor troops, only poor leaders" originates.[/qb]
I think your confusing group training and group punishment (I include plain old cock in the group training category). I‘m referring to situations where the entire group is punished for the actions of one individual. Again, I‘m not completely against this, sometimes the rest of the group will sort out that individual. But if that is not working, at some point you have to address the individual. You can‘t keep punishing the group for that one individuals continual screw ups. Instead of bringing the group together, it will isolate that individual, who possibly just needed some extra training and was a slow learner. Again it all ties back to leadership qualities. A leader has to be aware of the needs of his troops, he has to punish when appropriate, but also find out the cause of the problem.Originally posted by Infanteer:
[qb]
As for my views on group punishment, I feel it is necessary in basic training to highlight to the rest who the non-hackers are before they end up on operations and go coo-coo.
As well, group punishment can act as a good stressor on courses that require it. [/qb]
Exactly, but if the situation does not rectify itself, at some point continually punishing the group for the continual failures of that individual is pointless. This is the time to address the individual instead of continually punishing the group.Originally posted by Max Flinch:
[qb]
Gate Guard,
If an individual does something on course that merits remedial attention from staff, there‘s already a rift between that person and the rest of the troops. It falls into two sides of the same equation: The individual should have been working to ensure that they conformed with the rest of the team (polished boots, clean rifle, whatever). The rest of the troops should be working to ensure that they collectively take care of everyone - "Hey, need a hand with those boots?"[/qb]
No, your referring to the few losers who shouldn‘t have even applied to the CF. But just to play along, name one time the aforementioned scenario occured? Better yet, just give me one example of a troop who went up to his section commander and asked for a glass of water. Try to keep your examples in the realm of reality and I‘ll be more than willing to discuss and debate them.Originally posted by Max Flinch:
[qb]
As for your delightful assertion that there are no bad troops (only bad leaders), that really seems like an effort to relieve each and every F**ckee of responsibility for any action they may or may not take. "Gee, corporal, I‘m sorry I shot my fireteam partner. It‘s your fault - you should have been right there to tell me not to point my weapon in an unsafe direction. Can you get me a glass of water?" [/qb]
Originally posted by gate_guard:
[qb]Cyprus, early 80s, Foxtrot gate (main entrance to BBC in Nicosia) a PTE plays draw with his 9mm pistol. Shoots his partner dead. This kind of stuff happens in reality.Originally posted by Max Flinch:
[qb] But just to play along, name one time the aforementioned scenario occured? Try to keep your examples in the realm of reality and I‘ll be more than willing to discuss and debate them. [/qb]
You still haven‘t shared with us your Leadership experience... what‘s the matter ???