Cutting the CF/DND HQ bloat - Excess CF Sr Leadership, Public Servants and Contractors

[Remius]

The Leslie report did generate some media attention.  But it didn't really get the public's attention.  This kind of stuff is as sexy as proroguing parliament.  The average citizen couldn't care less.

But, they love a good cormmorant story or junkets that the CDS didn't take. 

 

[Infanteer]

The new joint commands would be responsible for fleets, brigades, wings and bases which would remain, largely, unchanged. Three service chiefs - professional heads of service - in Ottawa would manage single service doctrine, equipment requirements and training, including schools. But the schools would be part of their geographic joint commands.

Well, every time you put this one up, I have to put my disagreement with it up. 

I see no value in putting Pacific Fleet, 1 CMBG, 17 Wing and WATC under the same command.  Talk about a useless mailbox HQ that would be.  I have yet to see any real argument as to how joint force generation structures offer any advantage over traditional service based ones.

 

[The Bread Guy]

.... It takes time to change minds, but I'm guessing that MND Peter Mackay got a fair amount of mail re: Leslie's report and later re: the CDS' decisions to not cut some HQ bloat. I suspect he is getting more mail, right now, re: F-35 costs and re: DND reportedly misleading parliament. Those are the sorts of things that might stir a minister into action - there is nothing quite like embarrassing the cabinet to provoke a reorganization.

True, but one hopes that the action provoked = a solution, =/= action for the sake of being seen to be acting

 

[Edward Campbell]

Well, every time you put this one up, I have to put my disagreement with it up. 

I see no value in putting Pacific Fleet, 1 CMBG, 17 Wing and WATC under the same command.  Talk about a useless mailbox HQ that would be.  I have yet to see any real argument as to how joint force generation structures offer any advantage over traditional service based ones.

I'm not sure they, joint commands, are any better than service based commands at force generations, per se; but I suggest they are better at force employment and just as good at training and administration. My vision or guesstimate is:

Pacific Command ≈ BC + Yukon - it's mainly a RCN/RCAF command with some reserve units in the Army component
Western Command ≈ AB + SK + MB - it's mainly an Army/RCAF command with a few NAVRES units in the Navy component
Eastern Command ≈ ON + QC + PEI + NB - it's another Army/RCAF command with some NAVRES units
Atlantic Command ≈ NS + NL - and it is, like Pacific Command, a mainly RCN/RCAF command with some Army reserve units

Most classical force generation tasks are the task of the singe service component commanders.

But: Commanders Pacific and Atlantic Commands woud own and operate the joint naval/air forces that we use to patrol our coasts and send on overseas missions. Someone might decide to earmark certain Army units in Western and/or Eastern command for specialization in air-mobile operations and the joint force commander would train and prepare them and might even be the force employer in a national emergency (think a large passenger plane crash in the North).

I think a unified structure is simpler than the current lash up, maybe not much better, but easier to manage and I [color]orange]believe[/color] that, mostly, simple = better. It is, probably, still rearranging deck chairs on a sinking ship but I'm not sure that any organization is much other than that.

I also believe that my model can "grow" at least as well as the current structure if not more easily if, the gods forbid, we have to mobilize for a major war. The Expeditionary Force HQ/Support Group can grow to be a then several Div HQs and a Corps HQ and so on - equipment being assumed to be available. The joint Atlantic and Pacific Commands can generate as many joint RCN/RCAF Task Groups as we can manage (if we can build new ships and aircraft).

 

[Infanteer]

I'm not sure they, joint commands, are any better than service based commands at force generations, per se; but I suggest they are better at force employment and just as good at training and administration. My vision or guesstimate is:

Pacific Command ≈ BC + Yukon - it's mainly a RCN/RCAF command with some reserve units in the Army component
Western Command ≈ AB + SK + MB - it's mainly an Army/RCAF command with a few NAVRES units in the Navy component
Eastern Command ≈ ON + QC + PEI + NB - it's another Army/RCAF command with some NAVRES units
Atlantic Command ≈ NS + NL - and it is, like Pacific Command, a mainly RCN/RCAF command with some Army reserve units

There are some cultural aspects at play that probably undermine this territorial model of employment.  While the Army looks at the dirt at its feet, the Navy's area of interest starts at the high-tide mark and provincial boundaries don't really work well for the Air Force, who can cover your Pacific Command to Atlantic Command in a few hours.

In fact, your proposal basically shuffles a few boundaries and bins LFDTS, Pacific Fleet, Atlantic Fleet, 1 CAD and 2 CAD and downloads their responsibilities on the joint-Areas.  So, any real pers savings are lost as the joint-Areas grow to take on the training and operations of all RCAF and RCN units in Canada.  As well, there is some real imbalance, as your Eastern Command has about 80% of the Army and a similar percentage of the Air Force.  Essentially, some General in Eastern Command has to do everything while the Admirals on the coasts are given some Army Reserve units, with which they are not familiar with, to manage.

Crushing HQs is, in my opinion, not necessarily the path to improvement.  I do not have issues with a plethora of small, effective HQs.  The real target for HQ bloat is likely to cut down on nugatory processes and superfluous positions.  Oh, and merge the .Coms.

 

[Loachman]

replace the existing commands with four, geographically based joint or unified commands plus a Special Operations Group, controlled from NDHQ and an Expeditionary Force Group consisting of a HQ, with signals support and some support elements. The new joint commands would be responsible for fleets, brigades, wings and bases which would remain, largely, unchanged.

I was with you up until that point.

If you tried this, I would strip, decorate myself with woad followed by a liberal (small-"L" of course) coating of Crisco, and attack you with flaming machetes.

 

[MJP]

If you tried this, I would strip, decorate myself with woad followed by a liberal (small-"L" of course) coating of Crisco, and attack you with flaming machetes.

Promise?  ;D

 

[Loachman]

Maybe.

In the meantime, you can always fantasize.

 

[Pusser]

I was with you up until that point.

If you tried this, I would strip, decorate myself with woad followed by a liberal (small-"L" of course) coating of Crisco, and attack you with flaming machetes.

OFF TOPIC COMIC RELIEF

Some poor Roman soldier c. 60 B.C. was given the dubious honour of being the first off the galley and set foot upon Britain's shores.  Unfortunately, he was immediately run over by some screaming blue harpie in a chariot.  Yes, he was the firt victim of "woad rage."

Now, all together (to the tune of Men of Harlech):

What's the use of wearing braces
pants and coats and boots with laces?
These are things you buy in places,
down on Brompton road.

What's the use of shirts of cotton,
studs that always get forgotten?
These affairs are simply rotten?
Better, far is woad!

Woad's the thing to show men.

Woad to scare your foe men.

Boil it to a brilliant blue and rub it on your back and your abdomen.

Ancient Briton never hit on
anything as good as woad to fit on.

On your back or where you sit on,
Tailors, you be blowed!


Romans came across the Channel,
all wrapped up in tin and flannel.
Half a pint of woad per man will
dress us more than these.

Saxons you don't waste your stitches
building beds for bugs in britches.
We have woad to clothe us, which is
not a nest for fleas!

Romans keep your armour.

Saxons your pyjamas.

Furry coats were made for goats, gorillas, yaks, retriever dogs and llamas.

March up Snowdon with your woad on.
Never mind if you get rained or snowed on.

Never need a button sewn on.
Bottoms up for woad!

Now, let us return to our regularly scheduled thread so that we can in fact change the course of history and solve all the country's problems.

 

[armyvern]

Maybe.

In the meantime, you can always fantasize.

Well, if it should come to pass, take and post pics! An absolute and necessary "proof" will be required.

 

[Edward Campbell]

The formation of a new Joint Operations Command is announced in this article in the Globe and Mail. It appears that Canada Command, CEFCOM and CANOSCOM will be merged into one new command.

 

[aesop081]

...

 

[Nfld Sapper]

The formation of a new Joint Operations Command is announced in this article in the Globe and Mail. It appears that Canada Command, CEFCOM and CANOSCOM will be merged into one new command.

:facepalm:

 

[aesop081]

I propose we call the new organization The Vice-chief of the defence staff group.

No ?

 

[dapaterson]

I propose we call the new organization The Vice-chief of the defence staff group.

No ?

No.  There's already a VCDS group.

Now, a Deputy Chief of Defence Staff (DCDS) group, on the other hand...

 

[aesop081]

No.  There's already a VCDS group.

Now, a Deputy Chief of Defence Staff (DCDS) group, on the other hand...

Right you are. I am having a hard time keeping up with out wheel re-inventions.

 

[Pusser]

Right you are. I am having a hard time keeping up with out wheel re-inventions.

Who's re-inventng the wheel?  It's more like they're just pulling out the same old one and dusting it off.

So what happens if we get into a new war?  The article implies that we'll resurrect these commands again...

 

[dapaterson]

So what happens if we get into a new war?  The article implies that we'll resurrect these commands again...

What war?  I saw no declaration of war on Afghanistan or the Taliban.  Last time we were at war was 1945 (since I don't believe we went through the formalities for Korea, and know we didn't for the Former Yugoslavia).

 

[Journeyman]

What war? 

You're nitpicking.
We both know he's referring to the past decade where we sent a reinforced battle-group, and an exponentially increasing number of staff officers/NCOs, off for six-months ('ish) at a time, while the rest of the CF smiled and waved at all the "support the troops" sentiment back home.

 

[Infanteer]

The formation of a new Joint Operations Command is announced in this article in the Globe and Mail. It appears that Canada Command, CEFCOM and CANOSCOM will be merged into one new command.

Thank f**k.  Now, are we going to get some PYs reinvested into the units?  I'll trade 3 x staff wanks (now that there is 3 times less staff to feed) for a rifleman/gunner/crewman/sapper.