CP-140 Aurora

[Nfld Sapper]

You are a few replies behind, see post 147

 

[C1Dirty]

Mod edited to comply with Milnet.ca policy.

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[I_am_John_Galt]

While some air force officers want the Poseidon, a 737 converted into a surveillance aircraft, others are recommending the purchase of a plane similar to the ASTOR surveillance aircraft.

?? This is the first I've heard of Air Force types favouring the ASTOR ... am I out to lunch here or what?

 

[MarkOttawa]

More:
http://thechronicleherald.ca/NovaScotia/999045.html

...
The news that only 10 of the 18 planes would be refitted was buried in the news release. That, and the late afternoon timing, suggests the government is trying to play down the announcement.

Neither IMP nor the union that represents the workers at the plant was available for comment on Tuesday. And the Defence Department could not answer basic questions such as how much the work will cost, whether the reduction in the number of planes will reduce the number of patrols, when the military will buy replacement planes or where the planes that won’t be refitted are based.

Fourteen of the 18 Auroras are based at 14 Wing Greenwood.

"The 10, the majority of the fleet, keep us flying until 2020 and allow us to plan for a replacement of the Aurora," Mr. MacKay’s spokesman, Dan Dugas, said in an e-mail. "There will be a savings of a couple of hundred million because we aren’t going to put money into extending them beyond their best-before date like the Sea Kings. Money should be used to equip the forces with modern aircraft." ..

Mr. Coderre [liberal National Defence critic] said Tuesday that he’s glad that some of the work will go ahead, but he doesn’t understand why only 10 planes are being refitted.

"If it’s good for 10, it should be good for 18, so what’s the rationale here?" he said. "It will have an impact on the job loss. If we accept to modernize these planes, that means . . . what we’ve been saying is accurate."

Mr. Coderre predicts the reduction in the number of planes will affect operations.

"It will have an impact on the multi-mission factor, which is surveillance, which is intelligence gathering, which is antisubmarine warfare, and it will have an impact also on the smugglers. If we want to fulfil our job, we need those 18 planes."

Plus, from another defence expert:
http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5iphes8jvGm1s5oM20dVx20a6motg

NEW GLASGOW, N.S. - The federal government's plan to keep 10 of the military's 18 maritime surveillance planes flying until 2020 could reduce Canada's ability to conduct search and rescue operations, says Green party Leader Elizabeth May.

May was responding to an announcement made Tuesday by Defence Minister Peter MacKay. "Are we to have a nearly 50 per cent reduction in that capacity?" May asked in a statement released Wednesday...

The issue is a sensitive one for MacKay and May. The Green party leader plans to run against MacKay in the next federal election, contesting the Nova Scotia riding of Central Nova.

There were reports Ottawa was leaning toward cancelling all further upgrades in favour of replacing the turboprop aircraft with new planes - a move that would have cost jobs in Nova Scotia, causing political grief for MacKay.

On Tuesday, MacKay announced the nearly 30-year-old aircraft will get structural improvements, new radar, computers and other systems. Some of the work will be done by IMP Aerospace near Halifax.

But May said the commitment is not good enough for Nova Scotia.

"This decision should worry Nova Scotians on a number of levels," May said. "Premier Rodney MacDonald thought he had a deal with ... MacKay to upgrade all 18 Auroras. Now, it appears he had half a deal."

As well, May wants to know if the Defence Department has already decided to buy new aircraft and whether studies have been done to show such a move would be more cost effective than refurbishing every Aurora...

The chief of air staff, Lt.-Gen. Angus Watt, has said he's pleased with the decision to upgrade 10 aircraft.

It remains unclear what will happen to the eight surplus planes.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Colin Parkinson]

If Mr. Coderre had done some long range planning in their decade in Office we would not be in this pickle now would we...... :

 

[Kirkhill]

Reading between the lines -


Does this suggest retaining the 10 Auroras for MPA duties, acquiring a handful of Astors for battlefield surveillance and supplementing both with a small fleet of MALE/HALE UAVs like the Predators?

 

[Sub_Guy]

Mr. Coderre predicts the reduction in the number of planes will affect operations.  <---- Really?  Nice prediction, here's mine the team leading in the final minute by two scores will win the Superbowl, you heard it here first!


When I read between the lines I see it as a cost saving measure, a way to cut down costs.  Maintain 10, then when the next (NO ASTOR) aircraft comes our way we will be lucky to get 10.  Sure they can augment the fleet of 10 with UAV's, but 18 Auroras weren't enough, so surely 10 +UAV's  won't even come close. 

 

[Haletown]

<snark on> wonder if the Aurora SAR Tech community knows Lizzie May & The Green Party are covering their six ? <snark off>

 

[aesop081]

<snark on> wonder if the Aurora SAR Tech community knows Lizzie May & The Green Party are covering their six ? <snark off>

No SAR techs in the Aurora world. None.

 

[GAP]

Lizzie May & The Green Party  couldn't give two hoots about anything that does not generate votes, of which they have few. This way they can say they helped support job in the area, other than that the CF and go crawl into a hole and die for all they care.

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

I would say that's true of all the political parties...the moment we become dispensible we will be disposed of....see that old Kipling poem "Tommy"

 

[Haletown]

No SAR techs in the Aurora world. None.


ergo the snark on/off

Let's keep it our secret.  If Lizzie finds out,it could be politically embarrassing politically for her if voters learn she doesn't know her elbow from her ass when it comes to things military and so her comments are really just cheap politics designed to get headlines, not help the Forces get better equipment.

 

[aesop081]

ergo the snark on/off

Its not because we dont have SAR techs that we dont do SAR. When CC-115s out west are all down, the CP-140 is the duty FWSAR aircraft. We are often re-tasked while airborne to conduct searches at sea, ELT searches and other such SAR tasks. On Patrols we carry a Survival Kit Air droppable (SKAD) to assist survivors. There is both a sea and arctic version of the SKAD. With the sensor we have we are very capable as a search asset. Our comunications equipment allows us to be used as radio-relay and airborne command center for searches as well. We are trained to support the CH-149 Cormorant during night operations by dropping flares at regular inervals to allow rescues to be carried out.

Here is a picture of the arctic SKAD being dropped

 

[Haletown]

thnx  for the details.

In other really good news, maybe these new birds could also be backup SAR aircraft.

PR just out.

Merry Christmas to the RCAF !!

Military cargo planes get Treasury Board approval
By Murray Brewster, THE CANADIAN PRESS




OTTAWA - The Defence Department's long-awaited and controversial purchase of the newest version of the Hercules transport plane has been approved by the federal Treasury Board, defence sources say.

A replacement for the air force's aging C-130E and C-130H fleets was first proposed in the summer of 2006 by former defence minister Gordon O'Connor.

Sources said the $4.6-billion purchase of 17 C-130Js received funding approval last Thursday, but a contract has yet to be signed with U.S. aircraft giant Lockheed Martin.

 

[MarkOttawa]

More:
http://www.thechronicleherald.ca/Front/999224.html

The federal government’s plan to upgrade just over half its fleet of Aurora maritime patrol planes will leave huge gaps in the country’s coastal surveillance, according to several retired military pilots.

The Defence Department announced this week that it will make structural changes to 10 of the 18 Auroras. Replacing fatigued wings and tail sections and updating the data management systems is expected to keep the 10 flying until 2020.

"What it means is, we can only do about half of what we should be doing," said Terry Chester, a former Aurora pilot.

The big four-engine Auroras can fly about 8,000 kilometres without refuelling, scanning vast swaths of ocean on their missions.

Having fewer of them creates opportunities for people who smuggle drugs, fish illegally or empty ships’ oily bilge water into the ocean, rather than pay to dispose of it properly, said the retired colonel.

"It is going to be open season, and the bad guys are going to know that we can’t be there all the time," he said. "There’s going to have to be some gap-filling done."

The feds will be forced to augment coastal surveillance with unmanned aerial vehicles and satellites and by renting civilian aircraft, Mr. Chester said...

Mr. Chester credited Defence Minister Peter MacKay with brokering the compromise to improve 10 of the aircraft.

"We put a Band-Aid over the wound but we really need to get serious now about determining how we survey and protect our borders," Mr. Chester said.

Defence officials did not respond Wednesday to questions about the Auroras, 14 of which are based in Nova Scotia...

The military has already spent $955 million installing new surveillance, communications and navigation equipment in the Auroras.

Finishing the work, including structural changes, shouldn’t cost more than another $500 million, said IMP owner Ken Rowe, whose company will do the work in Nova Scotia.

The company employs 1,500 people in its aerospace division. Hundreds of them work on the Aurora project.

"It’s the best Christmas present news we could have heard for our workers to give them stable work going forward for quite a number of years," Mr. Rowe said of the announcement [emphasis added].

The upgraded planes could keep flying until 2030, he said.

"So it gives the military great flexibility . . . to make sure they get the right airplane at the right time with the latest technology down the road before the Auroras expire. And if they hadn’t done it, then they would have (been out of service) by about 2015, depending on how hard they fly them."

He’s hoping Defence Department officials will eventually decide to make the changes to additional Auroras.

"That may happen in the end," Mr. Rowe said.

"If they do 10, there may be a good chance they will do the rest if circumstances change of money availability, suitability of a replacement and how well these (upgraded aircraft) are doing in service."

Green Leader Elizabeth May said Wednesday she plans to press the feds for a better explanation of the decision not to upgrade all 18.

"Obviously, the cost of doing them all together now is going to be cheaper than buying new planes," she said.

"We need to ask some very hard questions right now (about) whether there’s a commitment from the Harper Conservatives to maintain the search and rescue capacity, the ability to monitor overfishing, to check for vessels that are illegally dumping fuel oil at sea.

"There are a whole range of things that Aurora aircraft are particularly well-suited to pursue, and once they’re refurbished and have extended their lifetime, that strikes me . . . as the most economically appropriate decision."

Mark
Ottawa

 

[I_am_John_Galt]

MarkOttawa;

You left this part out of the Chronicle Herald article (about 1/4 into it):

Canada bought 18 Auroras in 1980, even though the air force had asked for more.

"That was just barely enough because of the patrols that needed to be done and the area we needed to survey," Mr. Chester said.

Which is rather interesting as Mr Pugilese conteds that:

Regrettably most of this debate is between the air force, who never wanted the CP-140 as they want to focus on the CF-18 replacement and the senior leadership of the CF and ADM MAT, who are all either serving or in the case of ADM MAT, retired army officers. Thus the debate is between those who do not care and those who do not want to know! Somewhat typical of today's CF.

The sad point is that Canada has been forgotten in the debate. The fact that Canada is a three ocean nation whose livelihood depends on the oceans has been completely ignored in the debate.

>>Kinda betrays the "editorializing" in the rest of that latter quote, eh?  :

 

[hank011]

So we are ignoring the fact that a multi role aircraft is being used primarily for surveilance and occasionally for ASW. I say keep the 10 for their ASW capability and buy a surveillance aircraft to augment them.

I have very little confidence in the opinion of a former pilot over the CDS. Everyone that was ever involved with the Aurora knows of its naturally declining serviceability rates(just like every aircraft ever built) and knows that the FLEI rate is predictable and available with the click of a mouse. The CDS is provided with the state of the airframes just like those who maintain them(maintainers, not bus drivers) and will make the best decision.

Access to information would tell any reporter serious enough about the program, what percentage of the fleet is normally unavailable as they are either in IMP being maintained or waiting for IMP to provide service or parts. One has to remember that IMP bought out or underbid on most of the maintenance contracts for the fleet.

I am quite certain that if the AG looked into the various upgrade attempts involved in this program we would see what a financial mess it is to stick an aftermarket Tape deck into a 1981 Ford in 2007. Especially embarrassing since the US are retiring their airframes filled with properly designed equipment that we didnt upgrade to. 

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

thnx  for the details.

In other really good news, maybe these new birds could also be backup SAR aircraft.

PR just out.

Merry Christmas to the RCAF !!

Military cargo planes get Treasury Board approval
By Murray Brewster, THE CANADIAN PRESS




OTTAWA - The Defence Department's long-awaited and controversial purchase of the newest version of the Hercules transport plane has been approved by the federal Treasury Board, defence sources say.

A replacement for the air force's aging C-130E and C-130H fleets was first proposed in the summer of 2006 by former defence minister Gordon O'Connor.

Sources said the $4.6-billion purchase of 17 C-130Js received funding approval last Thursday, but a contract has yet to be signed with U.S. aircraft giant Lockheed Martin.

RCAF? No such thing anylonger ....

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I am sure if the Liberals had been in power for the last 55 years we would still have Lanc's with lifeboats slung under them as a primary SAR patrol aircraft.

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

I am sure if the Liberals had been in power for the last 55 years we would still have Lanc's with lifeboats slung under them as a primary SAR patrol aircraft.

I'm not a fan of the regime that bought them (Trudeau liberals) but let's be fair....the Libs bought the Aurora and the CF 18 for us.