CP-140 Aurora

[Jammer]

...and possibly gaining a few capabilties as well. Now if we could only jump on to the Wedgetail programme................

 

[aesop081]

...and possibly gaining a few capabilties as well. Now if we could only jump on to the Wedgetail programme................

Again, how many more multi-billion dollar programs is John Q taxpayer willing to put up with ? In a perfect world i would say "bring on wedgetail" but we have capabilities  vital capabilities disapearing.......so lets take things one step at a time.

 

[Jammer]

J.Q. Taxpayer didn't even bat an eye over a billion dollar gun control scam, or a billion dollar public works boondoggle.
I say lets exploit that high that the CF is on right now..............

 

[404SqnAVSTeach]

The CAS (General Watt) was in Greenwood yesterday and almost confirmed the above rumours.  He stated that the Minister of Defence has not officially canceled AIMP Block 3.  The minister had until September 20th.  He mentioned that Canada will remain with Manned Patrol Aircraft in a MMA platform with some ASW capability.  Gen. Watt stated that if/when Block 3 will be canceled to save money and to be put toward the next Platform.  The new MMA would be in service in the next 10 to 12 years.  He also talk about the  SPERWER/Tactical UAV System.  He basically called it a very expensive lawn dart.  The are trying to buy a new UAV but are lacking a bit of political momentum and they are working at building that momentum to be able to afford UAV and a Fixed Wing SAR.

My speculations are -> Canada will have to look at both Boeing and Airbus proposals.  I wish that Canada would invest in an CL-415 MP to bring back the Tracker's role.  The CL-415 MP has an EO/IR, Radar and it would be easy to install any other Avionics package by removing the water tanks.  IMO -> Canada will purchase the Predator or the Altair.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I wish that Canada would invest in an CL-415 MP to bring back the Tracker's role.  The CL-415 MP has an EO/IR, Radar and it would be easy to install any other Avionics package by removing the water tanks.  IMO -> Canada will purchase the Predator or the Altair.

Please explain to me why you think an unpressurized Sea plane that can barely do 200 kts would make an acceptable MMA/ASW platform?

 

[404SqnAVSTeach]

Please explain to me why you think an unpressurized Sea plane that can barely do 200 kts would make an acceptable MMA/ASW platform?

I my opinion, it would make a great coastal patrol aircraft.  I could assist in SAR missions and the performance are similar then our old CP-121 Trackers.  Canada has also mention that they want an Northern Airbase.  the CL-415 MP would be a good contender for that job.

 

[observor 69]

I my opinion, it would make a great coastal patrol aircraft.  I could assist in SAR missions and the performance are similar then our old CP-121 Trackers.  Canada has also mention that they want an Northern Airbase.  the CL-415 MP would be a good contender for that job.

You referring to this one:  ;D

Ah yes the first aircraft I worked on as an new AVS tech,

http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/site/equip/historical/albatrosslst_e.asp

 

[404SqnAVSTeach]

Nope.... this one

http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/site/equip/historical/trackerlst_e.asp

 

[Spencer100]

Looks like some of the mission will be preformed by UAV.  So we may not even replace the Aurora with a manned plane.



Remote-controlled aircraft will patrol Arctic: military
Last Updated: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 | 9:41 AM ET
CBC News
The Canadian military plans to buy a fleet of remote-controlled aircraft to patrol the Arctic, an official told CBC News.


The General Atomics Predator shown here is capable of both reconnaissance and armed attack. The Canadian Forces have not yet decided on the type of drone it will purchase for northern surveillance.
(Courtesy General Atomics)
Lt.-Col. Wade Williams said the drones, known as unmanned aerial vehicles, or UAVs, will be equipped with cameras, radar, radios, electronic sensors and possibly even weapons.

They will fly day-long surveillance flights over water, land and ice while being piloted by an air crew stationed on the ground at a control station that could be thousands of kilometres away.

"I think UAVs will go a long way to alleviating the requirement to have constant manned aircraft in the air," said Williams, who is with the military's UAV program

 

[aesop081]

Looks like some of the mission will be preformed by UAV.

Key word being "SOME".........UAVs are not capable of doing all mission assigned to the LRP comunity

  So we may not even replace the Aurora with a manned plane.

Since a UAV cannot perform all missions that are currently assigned to the CP-140, it will be replaced by a manned aircraft.  We may not replace all 18 we currently have but there is a manned aircraft in the future.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Since a UAV cannot perform all missions that are currently assigned to the CP-140, it will be replaced by a manned aircraft.  We may not replace all 18 we currently have but there is a manned aircraft in the future.

Concur.

 

[Bandit1]

Found this little segment on Youtube that shows only some of what our amazing Aurora crews do.  Cheers to you all.   

Bandit

[flash=450,200]http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/qDHIQ0J6Vww[/flash]

 

[niceasdrhuxtable]

I read that there was supposed to an announcement today (Nov 20) on the future of the Aurora fleet. I've checked out the usual news outlets but nothing. Anyone hear anything?

 

[crazyleggs]

Nothing has been officially announced yet.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/politicalbytes/

 

[I_am_John_Galt]

Nothing has been officially announced yet.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/politicalbytes/

This might be a better site to keep an eye on ('though I'm not holding my breath on that one): http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/site/newsroom/index_e.asp

 

[Sub_Guy]

Patrol plane decision delayed until after Parliament rises; opposition angry
By Murray Brewster, THE CANADIAN PRESS

OTTAWA - National Defence has postponed a decision on whether to continue with major upgrades to its fleet of Maritime patrol planes until after Parliament rises for the Christmas holidays.

Critics say the deferral is an unabashed attempt to bury what is expected to be a bad news announcement for Defence Minister Peter MacKay.

A substantial portion of the work has been carried out in his home province of Nova Scotia.

Defence sources say the long-anticipated announcement was put off earlier this week until Dec. 18, almost one month past the government's self-imposed deadline and at least four days past Parliament's scheduled Christmas break.

Despite several telephone calls over three days, the department's material branch did not answer requests for comment - or explain the rationale for the extension involving the CP-140s.

The air force had originally intended to keep its 18 CP-140 Auroras in the air until 2025, but a multi-year upgrade contract was put on hold in September and there have been suggestions the military has been shopping for a replacement aircraft.

The life extension has cost taxpayers $900 million thus far and is about to complete its second phase.

To date, the Auroras have received an upgraded navigation system, global positioning systems and better radar, among other things.

The next two phases, which are now on hold, would have given the aircraft better data management system, sensors - such as imaging radar - and finally protection against air-to-surface missiles.

Companies, including IMP Aerospace in Halifax, were preparing for the next round when the project was put in limbo.

Defence sources said officials from IMP met with MacKay earlier this month.

The minister offered no hint about what the final decision might be "other than to suggest they might not be happy with the result," said an official who asked not to be named.

A spokesman for the minister denied MacKay is leaning one way or another and that politics played any part in the decision to postpone.

"The minister has not made a decision on this file and is expected to within coming weeks," Dan Dugas said in an email note.

"The reason for the postponement is that the minister wants all the information possible on this important file before he does decide the way forward and he's waiting for more advice."

But Opposition members said they don't buy it and the stonewalling - particularly by department officials - can only mean the Conservatives want the issue dropped into the pre-Christmas news void to protect MacKay.

There has already been controversy surrounding defence contracts in Nova Scotia's business community. Irving-owned Halifax Shipyards is suing the federal government over the awarding of a long-term submarine maintenance contract.

"So, it means during Christmas, ho, ho, ho, and we pull-the-plug," said Liberal defence critic Denis Coderre.

"The only reason they would want to do this during the holidays is because they want to cover it up so nobody knows what happened."

NDP defence critic Dawn Black said she's troubled by the extension and that politics appear to be at play.

"This is important for surveillance and for the safety of Canadians on both coasts and we deserve to know what is going on."

The Auroras are used for submarine hunting and coastal surveillance.

In 2005, IMP and L-3 Electronic Systems were awarded two contracts totalling $961.1 million.

IMP, which has maintained the airframe of the Auroras since they were introduced in the 1980s, has been carrying out engineering and structural upgrades.

Industry officials told MacKay it would be cheaper to continue with the upgrade and keep the planes flying until 2025, rather than spend several billion dollars to purchase new ones.

But the air force has countered that the slow pace of the refurbishment means it could have new aircraft by the time the old ones are back in service, said a defence insider.

Bailing out on the rest of contract would result in a "managable" penalty, the source admitted.

The air force is said to be looking at two aircraft, the P-8 Poseidon and the ASTOR.

The U.S. Navy replaced its Auroas with Boeing manufactured P-8s, which are essentially 737s modified for survelliance. The ASTOR is a smaller version of Quebec-based Bombardier's Global Express jet.

 

[aesop081]

To date, the Auroras have received an(1) upgraded navigation system, global positioning systems and(2) better radar, among other things.

(1) No it has not. We are still using the original INS system. The block 2 navigation system is only installed in one aircraft and conversion is set to start next year.

(2) No it has not. We are still using the original APS-506 that the aircraft came with in 1980

Industry officials told MacKay it would be cheaper to continue with the upgrade and keep the planes flying until 2025, rather than spend several billion dollars to purchase new ones.

Industry officials dont fly the airplane and dont know what state its in.

But the air force has countered that the slow pace of the refurbishment means it could have new aircraft by the time the old ones are back in service, said a defence insider.

Slow pace ? Thats putting it politely.  IMP should be fired on the spot for the job they have done so far.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Denis Coderre, scandal searcher and aircraft expert (usual copyright caveats):

Aurora flap wings MacKay
http://thechronicleherald.ca/NovaScotia/995241.html

The federal Liberals want the auditor general to look into the future of the air force’s Aurora maritime patrol planes, a move which puts a local political squeeze on Defence Minister Peter MacKay.

The Liberals have written to Auditor General Sheila Fraser calling for an investigation in to the suspension of a multi-year upgrade contract on the nearly 30-year-old surveillance aircraft.

At the same time, Nova Scotia Premier Rodney MacDonald expressed concern that the refit of the CP-140s won’t proceed and promised to lobby Ottawa "aggressively" to ensure the multimillion-dollar contract with Halifax-based IMP Aerospace continues.

MacKay, who represents Nova Scotia in the federal cabinet, testified before the House of Commons defence committee Wednesday that no decision had been made.

He conceded publicly for the first time that the Defence Department is looking at the possibility of buying new patrol planes [emphasis added] to monitor the East and West Coasts, as well as the Arctic.

"We’re looking at a number of options, which include looking at the purchase — eventually — of a replacement aircraft to provide that capability," he said.

The department has postponed a decision on whether to continue with the major improvements to its fleet of 18 CP-140s until after Parliament rises for the Christmas holidays.

Earlier this week, critics lambasted the deferral, calling it an attempt to bury what’s expected to be a bad news announcement for MacKay.

MacDonald says the upgrades are crucial to the province’s aerospace industry and has already met with MacKay to discuss the future of the Auroras.

"It’s very important to employment. We have good-paying, solid jobs," he said Wednesday in Halifax.

"The federal government has a good aircraft there and it’s my hope and we’ll be pushing forward aggressively to ensure that continues."

Liberal defence critic Denis Coderre said he believes the CP-140 still has a lot of life left in it and his party will oppose replacing the 1980s-vintage four-engine planes.

The refit, started under the Liberals, was supposed to keep the Auroras flying until 2025, but defence sources argue that by the time it’s done in the 2012-13 time frame, the air force could have brand new planes.

The air force has received new heavy-lift C-17s and will receive new medium-sized C-130J cargo planes, fixed-wing search and rescue planes, as well as navy and battlefield helicopters, said Coderre.

"I believe the time has come to think about taxpayers’ money," said Coderre about the nearly $20 billion in spending.

"I truly believe those planes (CP-140s) are working. They are working very, very well.

"Instead of flipping through the catalogue and saying what’s the best thing we can have, then I guess the time has come to proceed with the upgrade."

The Auroras have already received an improved navigation system, global positioning systems and better radar under the first two phases of the refurbishment.

The next two phases, which are now on hold, would have given the aircraft better data management system, sensors — such as imaging radar — and protection against surface-to-air missiles. Companies, including IMP Aerospace, were preparing for the next round when the project was put in limbo in September.

A thought: why not separate general maritime, and arctic, surveillance duties (including vessel identification, pollution detection, fishery enforcement)  and part of marine search and rescue from the Air Force and make them a civilian mission?  As Transport Canada is already doing for pollution detection with a modified Bombardier Q Series.
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2006/12/marine-pollution-surveillance-aircraft.html

Fisheries and Oceans meanwhile contracts with Provincial Airlines for three Beach King Air 200s for maritime surveillance, two east, one west coast (Aurora work for DFO also noted at link).
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/media/backgrou/2004/hq-ac20a_e.htm

In fact Q Series,
http://www.bombardier.com/index.jsp?id=3_0&lang=en&file=/en/3_0/3_1/3_1_2_2.html
modified by Field Aviation, are used in the general maritime role by Iceland (eight hour endurance), the US, Sweden, Japan and Australia.
http://www.fieldav.com/pdf/press_20070507.pdf

Transport Canada could well operate such a fleet (despite their effort to become mainly a non-operational agency) on behalf of Fisheries and Oceans, Canadian Coast Guard, Environment Canada, CBSA/RCMP, CF as required, and others.

The Air Force would then presumably need fewer maritime patrol planes (whether Auroras or replacement) that would concentrate on military missions such as ASW and armed interdiction (and terrestrial surveillance, e.g. Afstan?).

And, if the Field Aviation Bombardiers actually fit the bill for such a broad suite of missions as outlined above, acquiring them would be a political plus I would imagine.

Some UAVs would also come in handy for maritime missions (operated by the Air Force for both military and civilian missions).
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/10/uavs-for-maritime-surveillance.html

Mark
Ottawa

 

[navig8ur]

Not to nitpick but four Block 2 aircraft have been delivered and a fifth is due in early January.  The initial Cadre Training started two weeks ago in Greenwood.

 

[aesop081]

MP&EU trials in Nanoose are starting shortly on the block 2 aircraft

Not to nitpick but four Block 2 aircraft have been delivered and a fifth is due in early January.  The initial Cadre Training started two weeks ago in Greenwood.

And not to nitpick further but Block 2 does very little for the future of the aircraft. All the sensors ( minus the MX-20) are still obsolete, The airframe is still in sad shape.  The GPDC is still ancient technology.