CONFLICT OF FAITH AND DUTY FOR ISRAELI TROOPS?

[pbi]

Here is an interesting situation. The Israeli Army has been experiencing morale and discipline problems for  few years now, but this seems potentially very serious.

From CBC Website News 20 Oct 04

Army chief condemns rabbis' call on soldiers to refuse to evacuate
08:59 AM EDT Oct 20
RAVI NESSMAN



JERUSALEM (AP) - Israel's army chief of staff on Tuesday condemned a call from scores of rabbis that observant soldiers should refuse to obey orders to evacuate Jewish settlements under next year's planned Israeli pullout from the Gaza Strip.

The statement by Lt.-Gen. Moshe Yaalon, broadcast on local media, reflected army officials' growing concern that a significant number of soldiers would heed the rabbis' call, causing a crisis in the army.

"Insubordination is dangerous to us as an army, as a society and as a nation. This is not legitimate and inappropriate," Yaalon said. "Don't put us in impossible situations."

"I call upon all those involved, from across the political spectrum, to show responsibility and not to undermine the (military)," he said at a navy memorial ceremony.

Under Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's "disengagement plan," Israel would withdraw from the Gaza Strip and four West Bank settlements next year, removing 8,600 settlers from their homes.

On Tuesday evening, an Israeli soldier was slain in a drive-by shooting at an isolated settlement between the Palestinian towns of Tulkarem and Jenin, near the West Bank settlements slated for evacuation, the military said.

The Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, a militant group tied to Yasser Arafat's Fatah faction, claimed responsibility.

Sharon's plan, though supported by a strong majority of Israelis in opinion polls, has infuriated many in his hardline Likud party and his former allies in the settlers' movement.

Opponents recently have begun waging strident verbal attacks on the prime minister. Opposition leader Shimon Peres said they are reminiscent of the poisonous political climate that preceded that 1995 assassination of then-Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin.

In the months before he was killed by an ultranationalist Jew, Rabin came under a barrage of increasingly personal verbal assaults from hardliners - including Sharon - opposed to his peace deals with the Palestinians.

New posters in the campaign against the plan accuse Sharon of "tearing the nation apart." Others show a picture of Sharon, the word "crazy" and three question marks across his forehead.

"While I am very much worried about the climate, I believe that all the security measures have been taken to defend anybody, including the prime minister," Peres told The Associated Press.

Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom said he, too, is concerned.

"We had enough a decade ago," he said of Rabin's assassination. "There is no way we can allow ourselves to experience the same trauma again."

The campaign against the plan has been growing more intense in the run-up to next week's parliament vote. Settler leaders have demanded a national referendum on the plan, but Sharon has dismissed that as a delaying tactic.

Last week, Avraham Shapira, a former chief rabbi of Israel, ruled that Sharon's plan violates Jewish law and said observant soldiers should not participate in removing settlers from their homes. Sixty other rabbis signed on to Shapira's statement.

Analysts warned that even a small-scale mutiny could paralyse the army, where many observant soldiers serve in combat and other elite units.

Some of those soldiers are in special programs combining army duty and Jewish seminary study, possibly dividing their religious and military loyalties, analysts said.

"If the calls by the rabbis lead to a wave of refusing orders, it could become the greatest internal challenge to the army since the war began," military analyst Amos Harel wrote in the Haaretz daily.

Israeli analyst Yossi Alpher said, "if this does not completely paralyse the army, it could make it very difficult for them to carry out the actual evacuation."

The rabbis' call has been harshly criticized by many across the political spectrum, including the religious kibbutz movement and even some settler leaders, who say that maintaining the fabric of Israel's democracy is more important.

Palmach Zeevi, an opponent of Sharon's plan and the son of slain hardline minister Rehavam Zeevi, told a memorial service for his father Tuesday that disobeying orders "is a type of anarchy that will shake the very foundations of the state." Rehavam Zeevi was gunned down by Palestinians in a Jerusalem hotel in 2001.

The crisis with hardline soldiers would be a mirror image of an ongoing problem the army has faced in recent years with dovish soldiers who refused to serve in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Though those protests have been limited in scope, the army has sent many of those soldiers to jail.

Also Tuesday, troops in Gaza killed two Palestinian militants seen crawling toward the border fence with Israel east of the town of Beit Hanoun, the army said. The militants were trying to plant a bomb.

In a separate incident, soldiers shot and critically wounded a Palestinian woman who was in a taxi near a checkpoint outside the main Gaza settlement bloc, Palestinians said. The army had no immediate comment.



© The Canadian Press, 2004

How should the Israeli military leadership deal with this, in a society with many members whose religious faith informs most aspects of their daily life. Can you really say to a Jew: "forget you faith while you bulldoze this settlement...?" Cheers.

 

[brin11]

The question I ask is:  Is their faith really being compromised by being asked to do these acts?  Faith and current (or past) political belief that hovers around as faith are two different things.  I have a real hard time with people using faith as an excuse to disobey orders, especially in such a volatile climate as this one.  These orders don't seem to immediately compromise their safety or security although one could argue that it could later by members of their own country if things go really wrong with this decision to evacuate the settlers.  They are conscripts as well, are they not?

pbi, you ask a difficult question.  I look forward to other responses that are more informed about this topic than mine.

 

[pbi]

brin11: Yes it is quite a tough one, especially in a society like Israel in which there has always been tension between secularism and orthodoxy. A similar situation (perhaps...) existed for Catholics in the US Forces, once the Pope came out and condemned Operation Iraqi Freedom. What to do? Follow orders, or follow faith? Cheers.

 

[brin11]

Did the Pope's order really get that much publicity?  This is the first I've heard of it.  I certainly haven't heard about loads of soldiers refusing their orders because they were catholic.  Maybe those tankers from the other thread should have said it was against their religion! 

 

[pbi]

I think it was earlier this year when the Pope came out and described the War as "unjust" (IIRC). As you may know, the Catholic Church has a doctrine known as "Just War" which defines under what circumstances engaging in war can be considered acceptable for Catholics. Normally the conditions are that there must be no other course of action, the war is for defense or to retake rightful posession, the war is pursued in a reasonably humane manner, and there is a reasonable chance of success. If these condtions are met, the Church may consider the war in question and deem it "just". Apparently His Holiness does not regard OEF as meeting the criteria, so he announced that it was "unjust". At least, that is my understanding. Cheers.

 

[winchable]

So If I'm to understand it, we've got what I'm guessing is a fairly young army of soldiers, and presumably an older group of rabbis.

A sign of change perhaps?
I've been talking to alot of Israelis at school as of late and one common theme was that a great number of the younger generation in Israel right now are looking to make more concessions than ever.
Even Sharon's changing his stance is perhaps a sign that the older ways of Israeli government business is not going to fly anymore.

I also think it's irresponsible of the Rabbi's to do what they've done because some of the soldiers might agree and leave their comrades stranded and the army weakened as a result of the rift between the two sides and of course Israel as a whole weakened because of that.

 

[dutchie]

I am not one to suggest that those of faith violate their religious duties and/or responsibilities in order to obey orders, but it seems to me that the statement by the Rabbis does no qualify as a religious responsibility. Just because a religious leader - whether that be the Pope, a Rabbi, an Imam, or whatever - instructs their followers to do something, does not make it a religious commandment.

This statement from the Rabbis seems to be politically, not religiously, motivated. That is, it is their political beliefs and not their religious beliefs, that motivated this 'order', and as such, should be considered as a political opinion of a fellow Israeli.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

As I read it, refusing to evacuate is about not making concessions - and that surprises me.  I know that there is a ground swell of refusniks that is gaining momentum, as well as a strong youth driven peace movement.

 

[Shec]

Perhaps I can contribute to the overall context and perspective on this thread.    Firstly, only last year did the ultra-orthodox (called Haredim) find themselves subject to military service.    Hitherto they had been exempt,   much like conscientious objectors elsewhere.    Secondly, the same ultra-orthodox had been exempt from paying taxes and other obligations faced by secular Israelis.   Thirdly, it is the ultra-orthodox who tend to populate the settlements established in the occupied territories and demand expansion rather than evacuation, finding themselves polar opposites from the secular refuseniks and peace movement.    Needless to say this has not endeared them to Israel's secular majority, a resentment has been building since the assassination of Prime Minister Rabin.    And understandably, they are reacting to this loss of privileged status.

So much of this is part of the evolution of the Israeli democracy and on a positive note it runs counter to the rise of fundamentalism in other Middle Eastern countries.   It means that the democratic principle of separation of Church from State is being reinforced.    In the final analysis, secularism will likely prevail, although not without pain.

As a result the radical Rabbis will eventually fall in step.   As far as the Haredi troops are concerned, either disbanding the religious units that were created to accomodate them and transferring them to secular units where they could find themselves invited to blanket parties hosted by secular comrades or a tour of the IDF digger outside Beersheba will smarten them up.



       

 

[pbi]

Shec:

As a result the radical Rabbis will eventually fall in step.  As far as the Haredi troops are concerned, either disbanding the religious units that were created to accomodate them and transferring them to secular units where they could find themselves invited to blanket parties hosted by secular comrades or a tour of the IDF digger outside Beersheba will smarten them up.

Thanks for providing an informed perspective on this issue. I had a vague understanding along these lines, but you have clarified the issue. Look out for the headline:

"ISRAELI SOLDIERS JAILED FOR RELIGIOUS BELIEFS"

Cheers.

 

[WAFFEN_SS]

That isn't fair these soldiers shouldn't have to leave land they got from these Arabs, they should leave the 8,600 Jews there, and displace the 400,000 Arabs to another country, like Madagascar. That would solve all the problems. In fact they should keep the land from Egypt and Syria; they should move and build more settlers' homes there. That way in a couple of decade they could keep that land permanently too. Remember "might makes right", who's goanna argue with Israel and their 300 Nuclear warheads, the UN? ;D All they have to do is label these Palestinians who are out raged by the land grab as terrorists and shot them all. Because we are fighting a war on terror, and we need to kill the killers. Regardless if your fighting for your home land, and liberation from a 60 year occupation if you go up against a media savvy country, you will be shot, killed, and labeled as a terrorist, and right fully so. Let these Palestine's' go cry about their torn down homes, and missing family members to the world, it will never reach a mass audience anyway. What media company will air their crying anyway?  :crybaby:

 

[Shec]

Look out for the headline:

"ISRAELI SOLDIERS JAILED FOR RELIGIOUS BELIEFS"

 

Perhaps,   but I have every confidence that any such media story would distort the truth by focussing on the value of a sensational headline sans indepth analysis anyway   :.    If it ever comes to that being jailed   by co-religionists makes for a political rather than a religious issue as Caesar points out above.    It would be no more repugnant a headline than "SO & SO JAILED FOR PACIFIST (or RADICAL or POLITICAL) BELIEFS".    

I would be much more concerned if a minority of fundamentalist religious zealots made policy rather than finding themselves as subject to it as the rest of the citizenry.    Theocracy vs. democracy has always been a debate, the real issue of which this story is a symptom.  And that is why I think that in the long run this will serve to further develop the nature of the democracy by stimulating the creation of a missing link - a constitution.    And that is all part of a process - it took Canada close to 100 years to develop ours.   The State of Israel has been in existance half that time and at war during most of it.

 

[pbi]

That isn't fair these soldiers shouldn't have to leave land they got from these Arabs, they should leave the 8,600 Jews there, and displace the 400,000 Arabs to another country, like Madagascar. That would solve all the problems. In fact they should keep the land from Egypt and Syria; they should move and build more settlers' homes there. That way in a couple of decade they could keep that land permanently too. Remember "might makes right", who's goanna argue with Israel and their 300 Nuclear warheads, the UN? ;D All they have to do is label these Palestinians who are out raged by the land grab as terrorists and shot them all. Because we are fighting a war on terror, and we need to kill the killers. Regardless if your fighting for your home land, and liberation from a 60 year occupation if you go up against a media savvy country, you will be shot, killed, and labeled as a terrorist, and right fully so. Let these Palestine's' go cry about their torn down homes, and missing family members to the world, it will never reach a mass audience anyway. What media company will air their crying anyway? :crybaby:

What complete, self-contradictory nonsense. What are you trying to say? Cheers.

 

[dutchie]

That isn't fair these soldiers shouldn't have to leave land they got from these Arabs, they should leave the 8,600 Jews there, and displace the 400,000 Arabs to another country, like Madagascar........ Let these Palestine's' go cry about their torn down homes, and missing family members to the world, it will never reach a mass audience anyway. What media company will air their crying anyway?    


Are you being sarcastic? Are you serious? If the former, you should indicate you are kidding with a "but seriously, yada-yada-yada". If the latter is the case, you should back up your rant with some kind of sensible, logical, somewhat informed, intelligent fact or philosophical base. If you are not capable of this, either admit to this or delete your post.

 

[Goober]

Seemed like a sarcastic post to me.

In regards to religious beliefs VS military orders, any sensible human being who signs up should realize that sometimes you may be ordered to do something that goes against your religious beliefs. Whether it be to do some work on Sunday, kill a man or follow through with an order that one of your religious leaders tells you not to do. By signing up you should already be commiting yourself to carry out the order, whatever order it may be. However, if you decide not to carry out the order, and follow your religious beliefs you should be prepared for the concequences like jail time, or even execution.

I think there should be harsh punishment for those who disobey an order, whether it be 1 soldier or 5000.

The Pope calling the Iraq war unjust did get alot of media coverage, especially in Europe, but in the US too. Here is an article, which may explain why it wasn't 'big' news in the latter half of the article.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/special/iraq/1806694

It basically states most Christians in the US supported the war, and didn't listen to the Pope.

A google search will get you almost 10,000 hits on it (pope unjust iraq war)

 

[dutchie]

if you decide not to carry out the order, and follow your religious beliefs you should be prepared for the concequences like jail time, or even execution.

Of course this assumes it is in violation of an actual belief. As CF members, I cannot think of any circumstance where an order would be given that would violate religious beliefs but still qualify as a lawful command. Most laws (criminal and military) are based on Christian doctrine (in Canada), and as such, reflect the same values. For instance, it is illegal to steal and it is also a violation to of Christian beliefs to steal. The big one (for our profession) is the 'Thou shall not kill' Commandment. It is widely interpreted that killing an enemy soldier in the course of one's lawful duties does not violate this.

So, yes, you are right, but the point is moot because you would never be asked to do something that violates any religious belief I know of. Perhaps the Muslims, Jews, etc on this forum could confirm this for their faith.

 

[Guardian]

Let me try to get my head around this...

The religious issue, as I understand it, goes something like this:

Ultra-orthodox Jews in Israel subscribe to an interpretation of the Torah that the Jewish homeland, as ordained by God thousands of years ago, stretches from the Med to the Euphrates.... It's not an aggressively expansionistic posture, exactly (I don't think they advocate conquering Jordan and Iraq, believing instead that God will "open the door" in the future) but it holds that if Israel, as the modern homeland of the Jews, possesses any part of that divinely granted territory, then to give it up to foreigners / Gentiles / non-Jews would be a violation of Holy Law. In effect, the argument is that a) The Jewish people is entitled to the land; b) God has manipulated circumstances to allow them to own that piece of it; and c) It's ultimately God's land, not Israel's, to give up, and to do so would be like giving away your inheritance....

If anyone who knows more about the situation could confirm / correct, please do.

Reference WEAPON's posting:

I figure you're being sarcastic. Still, it betrays an awfully oversimplistic interpretation of events. If you're trying to say something here, please make it coherent, and state a position so we can discuss it directly rather than guessing at your view....

 

[Shec]

To answer Caesar:    Jewish law is the same - hence the frequent application of the term "Judeo-Christian" when describing legal precepts and foundations.

To answer Guardian:  Your interpretation is essentially correct. The story, which can be traced back to the Books of Genesis & Joshua, is that G-d gave the Israelites the ancient land of Canaan which comprises the provinces of Judea and Samaria, ie.   present day Israel and the West Bank straddling the Jordan River.   It indeed is considered G-d's land and as you say His to bequeath.    

I suppose one could argue that the centuries of dispossession. persecution, and wandering could be characterized   as a manipulation of circumstances by G-d   as both a punishment for transgressing and an inducement to heed and build upon G-d's laws to merit His gift.    Personnally I subscribe to the theory that the Israelites lost their country after the reign of King David because the High Priests promoted an ethic of pacifism and de-militarization.

 

[WAFFEN_SS]

lol haha you morons that was my point we get conflicting points from the media aka minstry of truth and enlightment...and of course what is really the truth. It's up to you to draw your own conclusions...

 

[winchable]

Name Calling and ad-hominem attacks are not the signs of scholar my friend.
Dim the noise.