Conflict in Darfur, Sudan - The Mega Thread

[48Highlander]

You guys do realize they're talking about the Grizzly APC right?

What the heck is that?  ???

 

[KevinB]

Rob, you sarcasm detector is broken 

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

You get posted to  backdoor land and we'll see how well your sarcasm detector works

 

[the 48th regulator]

48th,

APC  Animal, Protected and Controlled....

What are you new?

geez

tess

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Rob's getting angry.
Rob may need to sign out the gas gun from Charlie Coy.

 

[1feral1]

Personally, I'd rather see these Grizzlies used as hard targets on ranges before being sent to Africa. If they have to have things given to them, why not aid in other forms, as some regime will just end up using these vehicles in some attrocity anyways, or worst against the west in some form should we ever be deployed in the region for any reason in the future.

Sorry I don't have much confidence in the mentality of today's governments of African nations.


Cheers,

Wes

 

[Armymedic]

Personally, I'd rather see these Grizzlies used as hard targets on ranges before being sent to Africa.

Gee Wes, I'd rather see them being hard targets crewed by others in someone elses country...I am sure once the warlods figure out RPGs can cut thru them like hot knifes in butter....

They are friggin useless to us, give them all away.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

I'm pretty sure that the latest RPG's can cut through a LAV 3 as just as easily.

 

[KevinB]

Yeah but in a LAV - the fire system works (both the outgoing fire - 25mm M242 Bushmaster - and the onboard fire supression system)

hadji is going to have to grow a set of big brass ones is he wants to engage a LAV with a RPG-7series - or 18 series.


We will reap what we sow when there is CNN video of AVGP's shooting at civilians in Africa -- kinda like Turks using our old Starfighters we sold then against their "internal problems".


That said a LAV/Coyote unit 1/10 the size of a AVG unit would have them dead in seconds -- heck given them to the Sudanese Army/Miltia's then let a LAV combat team roll them up...
The write "Surge-06 2VP - easy come - easy go..." on their wreckage  ;D

 

[mainerjohnthomas]

You get posted to Shilo and we'll see how well your sarcasm detector works

Sarcasm got me sent to Shilo in the first place.  And whose laughing now? :'(

 

[1feral1]

Gee Wes, I'd rather see them being hard targets crewed by others in someone elses country...I am sure once the warlods figure out RPGs can cut thru them like hot knifes in butter....

They are friggin useless to us, give them all away.

I just do not want them going to tin pot regimes, thats all. I's rather see them get uesd up here on the range than endanger lives of others, being they innocent civvies, or our allies in future deployments.

They may be useless to the CF, but what about LEOs  ERT/SRG/SWAT etc, and similar orgs around North America alone.

Leave the aid to Africa for medical and agricultural and similar things, never give 'em military aid as far as I am concerned.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[Kat Stevens]

where we gonna get the airlift for 100 Ursus horribilis? That's a lot of weight!

It would be fitting if the big Russian Bear loaned us an Antonov to get them over there... Just imagine the carnage a stick of half starved, air sick, pissed off parabears could inflict.  One big ramp exit party.....A "bear-assed drop" if there ever was one...okay, I'll stop now.

Kat

 

[Slim]

Personally the only thing I would ever send to anyplace in Africa is food and/or medicine.

That continent has more guns and other forms of mayhem than the rest of the world put together...They certainly do NOT need Canadian Grizzly APC's!

 

[McG]

There are several African nations that make regular and sizable contributions to peacekeeping operations on their continent.  Providing them a decent vehicle to do this in may not be a bad way to contribute when we cannot provide soldiers (especially if they are only sent on loan).

That being said, before seeing the Grizzlies go off to be a range target, I would prefer to see them used for CMTC OPFOR (instead of converting perfectly functioning LAVs into a vehicle with the sole role of playing bad-guy on trg).

 

[Edward Campbell]

This, from yesterday's Ottawa Citizen is Senator Romeo Dallaire's response to the large number of people, including MGen (Ret'd) Lewis MacKenzie, who have critized his volte face on Sudan.

http://www.canada.com/ottawa/ottawacitizen/news/opinion/story.html?id=11852587-f1c1-409d-bcfc-9a74cad02f80

The solution for Darfur

Two years ago, I called for a major effort to stop a repeat of Rwanda, but nothing happened. Now, things have changed.

Romeo Dallaire
Citizen Special

Friday, June 24, 2005

The debate surrounding the Canadian response to the situation in Darfur must not be cheapened by partisan bickering or personal disputes. The focus must remain on the people of Darfur and how Canada can best contribute to stopping the human-rights abuses and crimes against humanity there.

Based on my experience as commander of the United Nations Force in Rwanda in 1994, and everything I have learned since, I believe the best hope for Darfur right now is for the wealthy countries of the West, like Canada, to do all they can to support the African Union in its efforts to bring security and stability to Darfur.

As recently as three months ago, I called for an intervention force of up to 44,000 combat and support soldiers to be deployed to Darfur, a recommendation based on the many reports of mass killings, destruction of villages and concerted internal displacement as Darfuris fled for their lives en masse from the Janjaweed militias. Add to this the raping of women and young girls as they foraged for critical scraps of wood, the nightly raids on dispersed rural populations, the still unprotected camps and the despair and disease spreading due to lack of food and other vital supplies. The whole situation smacked of a repeat of the Rwandan genocide.

The militias, tribal extremists and common bandits essentially achieved with impunity the aims of the Janjaweed. They succeeded in creating the revolting scenes that we see throughout Darfur today: millions of innocent people packed into camps in Sudan and neighbouring Chad; a depleted rural population, villages burned and countryside ravaged, waiting for the onslaught of torrential rains.

All the while, what did the supposedly enlightened, just and human-rights-conscious developed world do about this situation as it unfolded over the last two years? What did we do when faced with these hard and verified facts, even as reminders of the Rwandan genocide a decade before flickered on the movie screens?

In fact, we did not do much.

Faced with cries for help from Darfuris, echoed by hundreds of humanitarian workers on the ground, we fiddled, prevaricated and watched from afar. We hoped, as was the case 11 years ago, that the problem would resolve itself, in as short a time as possible and with a minimum commitment on our part.

The situation in Darfur has changed dramatically over the past few months. Make no mistake, the situation continues be grave. The rapes and killings must stop and security must be improved to allow the millions of refugees and internally displaced persons to return to their homes, and for humanitarian aid to reach those desperately in need.

However, a changed situation calls for a changed response. We have to focus on this new state of affairs. The priority must be the protection of the nearly two million internally displaced persons and refugees who ultimately must return safely to their homes and start to rebuild their lives.

Having taken the decision not to intervene months ago while genocide was unfolding, we are now faced with different options. There is a conspicuously more defined and limited threat and consequent security requirement.

Instead of leading a Don Quixote cavalry charge into a desert that has absorbed legions of white colonial troops in previous decades, we may finally have realized that those who are the most immediately concerned, and who are the closest to this calamity, might be the best ones to intervene. We don't need a crusade by the professional armies of the north. We need a more humble and determined effort and an extended kinship.

When the world abandoned Rwanda in 1994 at the height of the genocide, the big powers told me that the genocide was an African problem and so it was up to the Africans to sort it out. But the Africans did not have the means to do so.

Eleven years later, Africans are once again being told to sort out their problems and there is some evidence they have learned some lessons from Rwanda.

The African Union soldiers currently stationed in Darfur have the fundamental skills necessary to do the job. They don't lack the experience or the motivation to accomplish their mission.

As United Nations Secretary General Kofi Annan reported after his tour of the region a few weeks ago, in the areas where the African Union Mission (AMIS) is deployed the security situation is vastly improved -- reducing fear among the local populations and permitting humanitarian aid to get through. The AU force is extremely effective in the areas in which it is present; but they must be supported and reinforced so they are able to increase their presence across the region.

What the AU forces lack are the "force multipliers," tactical mobility, as well as the strategic airlift that would make them most effective. They require helicopters, and armored vehicles. And the commanders of this mission require the resources that would allow them to establish a proper headquarters with communications to improve their command and control function. The Darfur mission needs exactly what I needed in Rwanda -- but did not get.

This is exactly the support and reinforcement Canada is providing. We are reinforcing the African Union Mission with a significant force multiplier capability for the rapid reaction reserve forces in the form of armoured personnel carriers and helicopters, which are of great strategic importance to the force commander's ability to effectively achieve his mission. We are providing additional support in the form of equipment and material and are prepared to provide planning experts and other specialized staff to support AU operations.

In May I travelled, as a member of the prime minister's special advisory team, to Addis Ababa, Ethiopia to take part in the AU Pledging Conference where Canada committed $170 million to AMIS, the largest single contribution made at the conference.

While in Addis I met with many people involved in the AU mission, including the deputy force commander from my mission in Rwanda, Maj.-Gen. Henry Anyidoho who is now the chief of staff of AMIS. These meetings strengthened my professional commitment and reinforced my belief that the support Canada is providing to AMIS is the full and right response to the situation in Darfur and for Africa in the long term.

Canada is prepared not only to offer its expertise and experience in dealing with these situations. We can also try to use our influence with others. We must facilitate and support the AU countries as they grapple with this situation and learn how to better serve their African brothers and sisters when the next catastrophe hits their region.

We must help Africans to sort out the evil in their midst that strangles development and drowns the fundamental rights of every human to be treated and respected equally.

Senator Romeo Dallaire is a member of the prime minister's special advisory team on Sudan and former commander of the United Nations Force in Rwanda.

Dallaire Responds

© The Ottawa Citizen 2005​

With apologies to the good Senator, nothing has changed and, in my opinion, nothing needs to change.   Sudan went to heck in a hand basket years and years and years ago - about the time the old, reasonably stable, not too corrupt, Anglo-Egyptian Sudan was replaced by the current construct.   We can, I believe, safely, leave Sudan, and all of Africa, for that matter, in heck, in hand-baskets.   I doubt that anyone - not even a United West has the skills, resources or stomach for rescuing Africa from the chaos and barbarism into which it is steadily, unstoppably descending.   When, near to 2025 the descent is almost complete it may be appropriate to contract out the re-colonization of Africa to India (maybe to China, too, just to be fair).   We, the Euro-West certainly made a colossal mess of the 19th century colonial process in Africa and we should not try again.   If, as I assume is the case, the perfectly sensible option of ignoring Africa for a century or so - except for a few mineral deposits - is not acceptable, then someone else will have to take charge.   If Africa cannot do it to itself and if Europe/America is a bad choice then Asia is all that's left.

I have no objection to sending serviceable kit to the AU forces in Sudan - it will not be serviceable for long and it will not, therefore, do much good (or harm) one way or the other.   I, as a matter of policy, object to sending even one Canadian soldier to Africa for any reason less than conquering Zimbabwe and hanging Mugabe - that ought to take one brigade about one year; since we don't have a brigade any such discussion is far-fetched, at best.

Dallaire has just given us the Liberal/Government of Canada party line - all the Party apparatchicks in the bureaucracy, commentariat and academe can now speak with a single voice.   Three months ago (when Dallaiere says he called for 44,000 Western troops to go to Sudan) never happened.   Paul Martin's infinite wisdom has been confirmed by Saint Romeo himself, what else is needed?

Moderators: could we merge this with the What next for CF? Sudan? thread - they are closely related. I think.   Thanks

DONE!

 

[mainerjohnthomas]

To horribly misquote Otto Von Bismark- The problems of (Africa) today will not be settled by words(or money), but by blood and iron!.  Sanctions have no effect on bandits, genocide is not halted by leaflets, and inspection teams that report on gang-rapes and murder, that are never followed by justice, only fill Africa with contempt for the fine words and empty promises of the west.  If we are not willing to send a brigade to stop it, then stop wasting time and money pretending to care.  If we are going to play colonial power, then do it.  If we want to take up Kiplings "White mans burden" (sorry, today he'd call it First World or G8, but at the time only Europe and North America were playing), and tell the less developed nations of the world what atrocities are and are not allowed, then start building up the CF now, because we will need a few divisions if we want to deploy long enough to smash the old order, and build a new one.  I don't see our politicians having the balls to do that.  I see our politicians looking for a "noble gesture" that will showcase their "deep sincerity" and accomplish jack-shite.  If that's the case, they can do it from someone else's budget.  Since the CF has seen every major procurement announcement clawed back, or downscaled to support our ever-dwindling overseas deployments, or to fund other gov't pet projects, then I fundamentally object to "giving" away CF material to Africa.  Sending APC's to Africans is not going to make peace.  Sending a brigade will stomp one side flat, and stop today's genocide; it will not make the survivors play nice unless we are committed to keeping it there, and stomping our allies flat if/when they decide to try returning the favour (because today's victims are often just as inclined to slaughter as their stronger opponents).  If we send APC's, send PPCLI or RCR  in them.  If we are making a useless gesture, send Adrienne Clarkson.

 

[Pikache]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4300526.stm

The African Union has accused Sudanese government forces of supporting Arab militiamen targeting civilians in the troubled region of Darfur.

The head of the AU mission in Sudan said government helicopters gunships had flown overhead during a recent militia attack on a refugee camp.

But he suggested that rebels had also broken a truce signed by both sides.

About 180,000 people have been killed and two million have fled their homes since the conflict began in early 2003.

There has been an upsurge in violence in recent days.


There is neither good faith nor commitment on the part of any of the parties
Baba Gana Kingibe
Head of UA mission in Sudan
On Wednesday at least 32 people died during a attack by pro-government Janjaweed militias on Aro Sharow refugee camp in western Darfur.

The head of the AU's peacekeeping mission in Sudan, Baba Gana Kingibe, told reporters that army helicopters had been flying overhead in an "apparent air and land assault".

He said this gave "credence to the repeated claim by the rebel movements of collusion between the government of Sudan forces and the Janjaweed".

Both sides blamed

Mr Kingibe also spoke of close co-ordination by Sudanese forces in militia attacks earlier in the month in north Darfur.

Janjaweed militiaman
Janjaweed militias are accused of widespread atrocities
The head of the AU mission in Sudan said both sides in the conflict had violated the ceasefire.

"There is neither good faith nor commitment on the part of any of the parties," he said.

The Sudanese government denies any links to the Janjaweed and describes them as criminals.

United Nations Secretary General Kofi Annan on Friday condemned "attacks of civilians, humanitarian workers and assets and the African Union mission in Sudan".

Mr Anan called for those responsible to be brought to justice.

The conflict began in early 2003, after a rebel group began attacking government targets.

About 5,600 peacekeepers from the African Union are monitoring a ceasefire agreement reached in April 2004.
***
Interesting, because normally Africans don't like to accuse other Africans of wrong doing in this manner, unless there's unknown political pressure from somewhere that we don't know about.

 

[Gunner]

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/11/20/grizzlies051120.html

Canadian armoured vehicles start arriving in Darfur
Last Updated Sun, 20 Nov 2005 22:54:08 EST
CBC News
The first of 105 Canadian armoured personnel carriers have arrived in Darfur, as part of a $170-million Canadian effort to support African Union peacekeepers in the troubled west Sudan region.

INDEPTH: Sudan
 
One of the 105 Canadian armoured personnel carriers, nicknamed Grizzlies, sits after arriving in Darfur. 
There was little fanfare as some of the vehicles â “ known as "APCs" or "Grizzlies" â “ rolled out of a Ukrainian transport plane and into the hot sun in Al Fashir in Darfur on the weekend.

They're expected to make a big difference in helping the African Union soldiers enforce a truce between government-backed militias and southern rebels in a harsh desert landscape the size of France.

Sen. Romeo Dallaire â “ a former general who is part of Canada's special advisory team on Sudan â “ praised the vehicles and said they would have helped greatly when he was leading the UN peacekeeping mission during the Rwandan genocide.

"Instead of running around in an open vehicle and potentially [being] totally at risk of being shot at ...these APCs will give them that protection," Dallaire told CBC News.

He predicted the extra sense of security would make the peacekeepers bolder in pursing their mandate.

The Grizzlies, which are armed with heavy and light machineguns, should be all in active use by January. It is costing the federal government $15.5 million to rent the cargo planes and it is expected to take about a month to move all of the vehicles, spare parts and ammunition into Sudan.

They are part of an African Union rapid-reaction force that also includes 25 Canadian-leased helicopters.

Earlier delivery of APCs might have saved peacekeepers, envoy says

African Union troops began training on the Grizzlies in July in Senegal and they were meant to start arriving in late September.

Instead the vehicles sat in Senegal for three months because the Sudanese government wouldn't let them into the country.

Sudan's government said they feared the southern rebels â “ who say the Arab-dominated government is oppressing black Africans in the country â “ would get their hands on them.

Ambassador Baba Gana Kingibe, the African Union's special envoy for Darfur, questioned the high cost of that delay as the first Grizzlies were unloaded.

Four Nigerian peacekeepers were killed in October, allegedly by government-backed Arab militants known as Janjaweed.

"Had we had these APCs in the time that they were scheduled to have been delivered, I wonder if we could not have saved the lives of four of our comrades."

The 7,000 African Union troops are presiding over a shaky ceasefire between rebels in Darfur and the Janjaweed.

The Janjaweed are accused of conducting a kind of ethnic cleansing that has claimed tens of thousands of lives and forced two million people from their homes over two years.

Despite regular peacekeeping patrols, the violence has flared in recent months with regular attacks on aid convoys, villages and refugee camps.

A man in the Otash refugee camp in South Darfur told CBC News that he had fled a Janjaweed raid on his village two weeks ago that left 43 people dead.

He said that when he tried to return to his home, accompanied by AU peacekeepers, militants attacked again.

Some questions have been raised over the APCs, which are old â “ dating to the 1960s â “ and will need a lot of maintenance in the hot, dusty environment.

But the African Union peacekeeping mission has drawn widespread international praise for its work under difficult conditions and it's hoped that the APCs will help them put an end to the militias and their attacks.

"I don't think they have any equipment that can face the APCs," said Maj.-Gen. Festus Okonkwo, who commands the African Union Mission (AMIS) in Darfur.

"Most of them go in on horses and camels and I don't think they will be able to withstand AMIS troops in such circumstances."

Hmm, wonder if MGen Festus Okonkwo will still think the Grizzly is good the first time a RPG is fired at it.  Maybe I'm just being cynical.

 

[TCBF]

Did we give them the .50 cals and C6s for the turrets?

Did we give them the up-armour packs we used in Bosnia?

Radios?

What about an echelon? - Mrts, ammo fuel, rats, water, connsumables trucks...?

Ambulances?

Command posts?

Huskies for Recovery?

I hope we set these guys up to succede.

Tom

 

[Cloud Cover]

If the Husky is the "tow truck" version, there were a few in todays news video's. I didn't see any weapons fitted to the Grizzly turret.
Cheers.