COMPONENT TRANSFER - Pay protection

[maniac779]

I was wondering if anyone had a CBI reference or a similar experiance from which I can draw knowledge from regarding pay protection (sometimes called "vested rights" as I am told) on transfer from the PRes to the RegF.

I'm currently being paid less as a 2LT ($500 less... it hurts) than I was as a Cpl.

Can anyone shed some light on this so when I go to the OR to solve this, I at least sound like I know what I am talking about.

 

[geo]

Hmmm.... so you're making 500$ less as a 2Lt (pid 365 days / yr) than as a Cpl being paid Class A or B?

Geee - that really is rough.

 

[maniac779]

I was a Cpl on Class B (365 days/yr) making $3510 a month and now I'm making $3026 a month as a 2Lt. Along the line I was assured my pay would be protected, and low and behold, its not. I have an idea where the mistake was made, I'm just looking for some one who has gone through this as well

 

[geo]

OK... now that all the info is out.... someone can answer your question

Uhh.... have you tried to contact your career mangler?
if you were given promisses and assurances.........

 

[HCA123]

I have a good friend who is looking for the same info. He was a MCpl IPC 2 in the reserves, did some Class B & C call outs (including a short 6 week stint in Afghanistan), but when he transferred to the regs he was given Pte trained. Has looked for some CANFORGENs but hasn't found the right one.

My pay was protected when I transferred from the reserves (reserve Sgt IPC 0 to Lt in the regs). I was told it was because of vested rights, but there may have been a number of issues at play as well (education, work experience, etc) - I'm not quite sure and I didn't question it because it came out to my advantage.

 

[maniac779]

From ADM(HR-Mil) Instruction 07/05

"7.10 Time Credit for Promotion (TCP)/Incentive Pay Category (IPC) on CT

Time Credit for Promotion (TCP) and Incentive Pay Category (IPC) will be based on FTPS calculations (refer to CBI 204.015 Incentive Pay for CT from Res F to Reg F and CBI 204.511 for CT from Reg F to Res F). There is no pay protection on transfer from the Res F to the Reg F."

Okay, well this seems to say that although you gain incentive credit towards your next pay level, it doesn't seem that your pay is protected, but then, this:

From 204.211 - PAY - GENERAL SERVICE OFFICERS - OFFICER ENTRY PLANS - LIEUTENANT, SECOND LIEUTENANT AND OFFICER CADET

(10) (Officer Cadet - former non-commissioned member)

"if the member was a former Regular Force member who re-enrols or a member who transfers from the Reserve Force to the Regular Force, at the rate of pay in pay level "D" in Table "A" and pay increment as determined in orders or instructions issued by the Chief of the Defence Staff."

This suggests that your pay IS protected.

Alright contradicting statements. Lets assume worst case scenerio. I am not entitled to pay protection, but I am obviously entitled to some incentive credit. On enrollment, I was enrolled at OCdt IPC 1 and was to be paid retroactively to date of enrollment upon commissioning. I made Ocdt IPC 1 during IAP/BOTP while most of my course mates were paid 2Lt IPC 1 from the start of the course even though our messages both stated "UPON SUCCESSFUL COMPLETION OF BOTP MEMBER WILL BE COMMISSIONED IN THE RANK OF 2LT RETROACTIVE TO DATE OF ENROL MINUS LWOP". So in my mind, even though I wasn't paid as 2Lt IPC 1 from day one, I should be getting at least that much now.

The two things I don't understand are as follows. Why the higher IPC as an Ocdt if they were just going to bump me down to 2Lt Basic after promotion? Second, why are my buddies, with no prior service whatsoever, who are also 2Lt, entitled to a higher rate of pay than myself, when I have 4 years + PRes as well as a bunch of Class B time?

My instincts tell me something was over looked and I should at least get another IPC level or so when I talk to the clerks, but with the additional info, can anyone else take any educated guesses as to what is going on?

My refs are as follows:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/cbi/engraph/home_e.asp?sidesection=6&sidecat=21&chapter=204
http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/instructions/engraph/0705_admhrmil_e.asp#7

 

[Michael OLeary]

Since no-one here can examine your file or make a ruling on your behalf, I would suggest that this may be the next reference you require:

http://www.cfga.forces.gc.ca/pubs/griev_instruments/manual_e.asp

 

[geo]

Michael,
Before you file a grievance, there has to happen one thing, you have to be refused something....... which, to my understanding has not happened yet.

What has happened so far appears to be some bureaucratic goof (which happens all the time in a big dinosaur organisation like DND)..... but he hasn"t been denied something yet.... thus he hasn"t been grieved yet.

Based on what you have been told would happen (vested rights) ask that they correct whatever they have done in error.... if you are denied - then you have grounds for a grievance.... not before.

 

[Sympatico]

Last week I got promoted Cpl(base) and i was excited with the increase of pay!

Now im getting my Component Transfer ready to go Reg F From RMS Clk Reserve to RMS Clerk Reg

If i understand correctly I will be Pte(T) and that's not a problem, but I will lose all my money as well?

Cause otherwise wouldn't it be beneficial to me to just take a CL B instead?

 

[geo]

Class A and B are paid at 85% of regular's salary
There is also the matter of health insurance, dental and a stack of other goodies that you don't qualify for in the reserves.

Also, as a reservist, they can terminate your "contract" with 30 days notice AND if you get hurt, they'll pay ya till the end of your current contract BUT will not renew the contract for another period.

If you want to be a full time soldier.... become a full time soldier
Don't be a "call-out bum"

IMHO

 

[Sympatico]

Correct about that 85% thing....But 85% Cpl CL B reserve is still a lot more Pte.

Im still going to do it, but it just doesn't make sense. They should simple pay me Cpl Base until i achieve that rank and then continue with my progression even if i only have 1 hook.

 

[AmmoTech90]

You have not achieved that rank in the component you are transferring to so they should not pay you at that rank.  You have not earned it.

D

 

[geo]

Reserve Cpl basic = 3411$/30 days
Reg Pte (2) = 2960$/30 days

Yes it is a little bit less $$ but, you're starting a new career and you can't get there doing it within the reserves............ next question?

 

[buzgo]

I dropped from Sgt to Cpl (QL5B) when I transferred. Its the price of admission. I agree with you Geo:

If you want to be a full time soldier.... become a full time soldier. Don't be a "call-out bum"

 

[17thRecceSgt]

I dropped from Sgt to Cpl (QL5B) when I transferred. Its the price of admission. I agree with you Geo:

I'll throw my 2 cents in, ex-Reg Force, now Reservist with 17 years in.  Currently Sgt IPC 4, been a Sgt since '98, been Class B lots, including 5 years straight.

One regret I have is that I waited so long to go back to Reg Frce.

Now have my CT in to ATIS Tech.  I know I will drop to Cpl, and why wouldn't I?  What do I know in my new trade?  Zippo. 

They way they calulate your time-in when you CT is day for day for Class B over 30 days, and the rest of it, quarter-time.

So, if you are a Res Frce Cpl, how much actual time do you have in uniform?

Also, they will tell you how much time credited you will have to your next IPC.

I have a friend who went from Res Frce Armoured to Reg Frce RMS Clk.  She got in Pte 2, and was a promote to Cpl early.  Cause she worked hard and was good at her job.  She has been Reg Frce now 5-6 years, and has been a MCpl for almost 1.5 years now.

But she worked for it.

Take a look at your MPRR, see how much 30+ day Class B Service you have, that will count day for day if/when you CT.

Cheers

Mud

 

[navymich]

I've been spoiled, I guess you would call it, as I've been on Class C for the last 4 years, so I will notice the drop in pay for sure when my CT comes through.  But I've calculated that I have just over 9 years of Class B/C time, so that will help too.

But the drop in rank and pay, although it will definitely be noticeable, is fine by me, for all the reasons already said, especially the fact that I'll have a career instead of a job.  I've been lucky to have had continuous contracts, but I'm not going to wait for the day when there's nothing left and then try to transfer!

 

[17thRecceSgt]

I've been spoiled, I guess you would call it, as I've been on Class C for the last 4 years, so I will notice the drop in pay for sure when my CT comes through.  But I've calculated that I have just over 9 years of Class B/C time, so that will help too.

But the drop in rank and pay, although it will definitely be noticeable, is fine by me, for all the reasons already said, especially the fact that I'll have a career instead of a job.  I've been lucky to have had continuous contracts, but I'm not going to wait for the day when there's nothing left and then try to transfer!

Class C for the Nav Res?  Or just your position is a Reg Frce slot, that isn't filled?

I thought all Class C was a thing of the past, exempt Augmentation for tours and the like...

 

[navymich]

Class C for the Nav Res?  Or just your position is a Reg Frce slot, that isn't filled?

I thought all Class C was a thing of the past, exempt Augmentation for tours and the like...

NavRes operational billets are all Class C.  The core crew billets of MCDVs are Class C as well as the positions at Port Security Section (West Coast anyway, I don't have any knowledge of the east coast ones).

 

[17thRecceSgt]

So it WAS only the army that screwed it own  ;D

Not that I was ever Class C, but a friend of mine was at the CFRC, and they got "cut" back to Class B positions...

I didn't have much sympathy if the truth be told 

 

[maniac779]

Okay, I think I have made some headway on this... can someone read this interpret it for me so I can see if my interpertation is right out of 'er or not? Pay attention to the bold.

From CBI 204.211...

(7) (Rate of pay - Continuing Education Officer Training Plan) An officer to whom the Continuing Education Officer Training Plan applies shall be paid, for each month after the month and year specified in the table, at the rate of pay for the officer’s rank and pay increment as follows

  a. in the rank of lieutenant or second lieutenant
        i. with no former non-commissioned member service, in pay level B of Table "B" or "C" to this instruction, or
        ii. with former non-commissioned member service and appointment to the rank of officer cadet directly from the rank of private or above, in pay level D of Table "B" or "C"      to this instruction; and
    b. in the rank of officer cadet with no former non-commissioned member service, in pay level B of Table "A" to this instruction.

This is amplified by:

(10) (Officer Cadet - former non-commissioned member) An officer cadet to whom an officer entry plan at paragraghs (4), (6), (7) or (8) applies, who is appointed directly to that rank from a non-commissioned rank shall be paid.

  a. if the member was a non-commissioned member of the Regular Force, at the rate of pay which, including any upward adjustments to the rates of pay determined under subparagraphs (i) and (ii) that may be established from time to time, and any upward adjustments resulting from the reallocation of the last military occupation in which the member served as a non-commissioned member to a higher trade group, is the greater of the rate of pay established for
        i. the rank, pay increment, pay level and trade group held on the day immediately prior to the date of appointment to the rank of officer cadet, or
        ii. any higher pay increment to which the member would have become entitled had the member remained in the former rank, pay level and trade group as a non-commissioned member; and
  b. if the member was a former Regular Force member who re-enrols or a member who transfers from the Reserve Force to the Regular Force, at the rate of pay in pay level "D" in Table "A" and pay increment as determined in orders or instructions issued by the Chief of the Defence Staff.

TABLE "A" TO CBI 204.211
RANK PAY LEVEL MONTHLY RATES (in dollars) AFTER MARCH 2005
PAY INCREMENT
BASIC 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Officer Cadet A 1328 1356 1386 1412 … … … … … … …
B 2400 2500 2890 3002 … … … … … … …
D 2400 2500 2882 3464 3962 4020 4078 4134 4190 4399 4619

(TB # 831822 effective 1 April 2005)

TABLE "B" TO CBI 204.211
RANK PAY LEVEL MONTHLY RATES (in dollars) AFTER MARCH 2005
PAY INCREMENT
BASIC 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Second Lieutenant A 3806 3860 … … … … … … … … …
B 3026 3203 3508 3816 … … … … … … …
C 3255 3530 3806 4088 4369 4650 4929 … … … …
D 4154 4278 4406 4539 4676 4815 4959 5109 5261 5419 5583
E 4204 4329 4460 4593 4732 4873 5020 5169 5326 5485 5648

(TB # 831822 effective 1 April 2005)