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Commissioner Wants TTC Cops Armed [ And What About Private Security?]

Slim

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Commissioner wants TTC cops armed

TTC Commissioner Bill Saundercook wants to arm the transit system's special constables with guns.

Saundercook, a Toronto councillor, said yesterday that the seizure Monday of a sawed-off shotgun and a revolver at the Dupont subway station just reinforces the need to arm the TTC's special constables.

Saundercook last week spent time with the special constables and learned how they face drug dealers, perverts, and thieves -- especially in washrooms and areas out of the public eye.

"After spending three hours with these guys, I would not want to do this job," said Saundercook, who plans on raising the gun issue at a TTC meeting.

The TTC's 76 uniformed and plain-clothed special constables are allowed to carry pepper spray and batons. They have powers similar to police officers while on TTC property.

TTC Chairman Howard Moscoe rejected the notion of equipping special constables with sidearms.

"We don't want to turn the TTC into an armed camp," he said.

http://torontosun.com/News/TorontoAndGTA/2006/01/19/1401404-sun.html
 
Slim
Vancouver Transit police became armed shortly ago. From what I recall most were former members of local police forces. This was done as a result of the rise in violent crime particularly in/around Sky Train Stations. it made the Vancouver and area media.
 
For some reason I thought TTC constables were already armed, perhaps because of the powers they have similar to police. Anyway, I wouldn't be opposed to them being armed.

"We don't want to turn the TTC into an armed camp,"

With 76 constables covering the area the TTC does and drivers and other employees remaining unarmed, I don't see how this would be an issue.
 
Slim said:
"We don't want to turn the TTC into an armed camp," he said.

it never fails to amaze me how no matter how many shootings, deaths and violent crimes occur, the liberal majority is still so ressiliant to arming those who are sworn to protect us to enable them to do their job better..... it seems like most of the people with this attitude would prefer that the only guns on the street are in the hands of criminals rather then those who are paid to protect us from them.

and to echo zombie's post. even if the TTC hired another 20 or 50 officers which i hear they are looking to do, I hardly see how arming less then 130 employees with handguns would turn the TTC into some sort of Military Force as Mr. Moscoe seems to think.... 

IMHO i feel Mr. Moscoe is well out of his lanes here... he may know how to make the busses and streetcars work, but he should probabbly leave security and policeing  to those who know what their doing.....
 
it never fails to amaze me how no matter how many shootings, deaths and violent crimes occur, the liberal majority is still so ressiliant to arming those who are sworn to protect us to enable them to do their job better

That's nothing...Some clown reporter hit the streets of T.O with this story and started to get opinions. The majority were ok with it but every once in a while some looser pipes up that HE/SHER/IT would be VERY UNCOMFORTABLE with having TTC SC's carrying...Something to do with Ontario turning into a police state...

Go figure.
 
Slim said:
That's nothing...Some clown reporter hit the streets of T.O with this story and started to get opinions. The majority were ok with it but every once in a while some looser pipes up that HE/SHER/IT would be VERY UNCOMFORTABLE with having TTC SC's carrying...Something to do with Ontario turning into a police state...

Go figure.

no doubt they started that little rant with, "I was just posting on the Matthew Good BBS "

Slim... I dont know how you live in this city... I get a headache just from working in it.... then again, My former boss once asked me not to wear my armour (internal carrier under a shirt and jacket) because people might get nervous... since heaven forbid the security working downtown should wear protective equip. one of the many reasons im itching to get back into my other job (the one where i wear green)
 
For a while i thought they were armed; kind of thought it would be a given. But one day i noticed they weren't and it got me a little worried. Personally i feel they should be armed. Especially after the kind of things that I've seen in kennedy station.
 
Slim said:
That's nothing...Some clown reporter hit the streets of T.O with this story and started to get opinions. The majority were ok with it but every once in a while some looser pipes up that HE/SHER/IT would be VERY UNCOMFORTABLE with having TTC SC's carrying...

I would feel very uncomfortable too...




That they can carry and I can't.  ;D
 
Cpl Thompson said:
no doubt they started that little rant with, "I was just posting on the Matthew Good BBS "

Slim... I dont know how you live in this city...

I Don't.

In fact I now live so far out in the country that my closest neighbour is 2 miles away...And for good reason.

To my mind criminals run pretty freely in T.O. They have guns and shoot at whom they please.

Not for me thanks.
 
Piper said:
No one realises that it isn't just the 'normal' cops who face danger etc. and therefore should be armed to better do their jobs. Transit cops in general have a crummy job, having to police generally isolated and out-of-view stations that are home to perverts, dealers, wierdos and teenagers (all equally dangerous).

I still shudder from some of the things I've seen go on at transit stations in Ottawa.

If anyone here thinks that the TTC police should not be armed, I invite you to go to Yorkdale Subway Station at about midnight and whatch what happens there at night (not that daytime is any better)

Why is it that the criminals are the only ones who should have firearms to protect their or someone elses life?! The TTC Special Const. unit are TRAINED POLICE OFFICERS and have the same powers of arrest that real police officers do on TTC property.
 
Cpl Thompson said:
IMHO i feel Mr. Moscoe is well out of his lanes here... he may know how to make the busses and streetcars work, but he should probabbly leave security and policeing  to those who know what their doing.....

Howard Moscoe has been driving the wrong way on a one way for quite some time
 
Slim said:
I Don't.

In fact I now live so far out in the country that my closest neighbour is 2 miles away...And for good reason.

one of the many reasons Im happy to be in Dundas now (part of the greater city of Hamilton..)


Slim said:
To my mind criminals run pretty freely in T.O. They have guns and shoot at whom they please.

one of the reasons Im thankfull that I just got a Class 'B' at my unit now which means I dont have to go there anymore. unless I want to visit.


Also, MP811.

Well put......

I still just cant understand how these people seem to think that giving a few more Cops some pistols turns the city into a police state.... sheesh... i think someones read 1984 a few too many times...

 
Its funny that you mention body armour and public image Thompson... I was having the same discussion with my 'boss' boss at work last fridays meeting.

Basically one of the local PD constables was telling me and another guard about some of the local street thugs who like to carry weapons, including firearms and knives. I brought up the concerns to our boss, who basically said two reasons we wont be getting body armour

#1 What would the people think? We need to present a positive image, walking around in even a stab vest is apparently going to make people think we are there to hurt instead of protect.

#2 If there is danger, you flee.

Now, I don't know about you... but if I see an armed gunman trying to pull ANYTHING while I'm on duty, I am not just going to turn tail and run the other way.... I just couldnt live with myself if I did such a thing. Namely because we are Security and LIFE SAFETY officers, I am there to protect people not run and leave them to the fates. And talking to a few of the people who I secure, they basically say the same thing... In my opinion people see body armour, they know the person means business. NOT only that, but we also have a large safe that all the deposits go into at the end of the night. On a good night we are probably well over $10,000 at least. Christmas time closer to 50 if not more. For myself (1 guard at night) to stand beside this safe, I feel we should be properly protected. I guess I am just venting here, as I know there will be nothing done about it.

Ah... if only I had my way. I really dont see the problem with even a concealable vest... easy fit underneath the uniform, just makes it look as if you put on 50 pounds of muscle, I fail to see the problem :)

But back ON topic... The TTC should definatly get at least the (ranking structure?) Senior NCO's trained and carrying firearms. Do they get any training and such on tasers? Or just pepperspray? I can just imagine what the little thugs in Toronto do to the poor TTC workers.
 
Sappo said:
Its funny that you mention body armour and public image Thompson... I was having the same discussion with my 'boss' boss at work last fridays meeting.

#2 If there is danger, you flee.

No one can out run Mr. Gaston Glock...
 
Well see thats just it... they may WANT you to run so their company doesnt have a death on its hands... but really if someone points a gun in your general direction you wont be running. It only makes sense to at least offer the protection while doing things such as safe watches.

I just dont see where the security companies get off with saying 'If you are threatened, run'. We are the ones hired to protect people, not run like children at the first sign of trouble.

I remember there was an incident where I work, where one of the guards did something like that... he stood in the shadows and called the local police while an incident occured. 5-6 tenants were watching him do this, wondering why on earth he just stood there doing nothing. Suffice to say there were NOT pleased with what they saw. He was let go shortly after that, steming from unrelated problems (but $5 says that didnt help his employment case). And it turns out, that the incident was nothing... and all it took was a 'hey how's it going' from the police to set everything right.
 
Sappo said:
Well see thats just it... they may WANT you to run so their company doesn't have a death on its hands... but really if someone points a gun in your general direction you wont be running. It only makes sense to at least offer the protection while doing things such as safe watches.

Agreed.  There are too many liability issues for the company if even in non-formal conversation that they tell the guard/officer to stay and attempt to gain control of the situation. 

I think it is ridiculous that a company wouldn't even allow concealable vests to be worn.  I think there would be more of a liability if a guard/officer were to ask to wear armour and told they couldn't then for that guard/officer to get injured because of it, ie shot or stabbed.

Edit:  Isn't anyone liking my one liners? :(
 
Occupational Health and Safety!!!
If you have a vest and want to wear it under your shirt, than do it.

I had a boss concerned that I was wearing a Tactical vest and was prepared to storm into any situation and that it would be a liability.

Well I corrected him on the Tac Vest part and pulled the wool for the second part.

If they want to be concerned with liability, have them put it in writing. Then take it to MOL and your lawyer.


Arm the TTC (as well as the Coast Guard!)

Ben
 
Policing a hidden city

TTC's unarmed special constables carry out a fine job that's truly mind-boggling

By JOE WARMINGTON

   


It's a fast-moving underground city of 1.4 million.

That's a lot of people to be policed each day by just nine unarmed uniformed cops and a handful of officers working undercover. But with just 58 sworn TTC special constables on staff that's the way it is most days for the subway and all of the bus and streetcar routes.

It's mind-boggling. It's just as much a crime as the amount they investigate. At least, thanks to city council's financial commitment, the hiring process has already begun for 21 new officers this year. The TTC board deserves praise too.

LONG OVERDUE

It's much needed and long overdue. "If we weren't down here it would be utter chaos," says Mike Twigg, a former Mountie who has been working as a TTC special constable for 12 years. "There is so much going on. We are dealing with weapons all the time."

His partner yesterday was Dave Weatherbee, a former Canadian Pacific railway cop, who has been with the TTC nine years. These first-rate men have seen it all in 30 years each of policing -- murders, rapes, drugs, suicides, fights, stabbings, shootings, train derailments, bomb threats and fires -- and they've saved some lives too. We should listen to them.

If they or their colleagues are ever faced with an armed thug, they won't be able to match his or her firepower. You might not want to be a customer riding the TTC on that day -- unless you have your own gun or bullet- proof vest.

A lot of people around the TTC are afraid to offend a guy like TTC boss Howard Moscoe because he huffs and puffs and spouts off at will. He also wields a lot of power.

This week was no different. When Councillor Bill Saundercook, a fellow TTC commissioner, called for the special constables to have firearms, Moscoe said, "We don't want to turn the TTC into an armed camp."

The problem is on some days it already is. But the wrong guys have the guns. The comment, for me, was right up there with Moscoe's famous "the terrorists first would have to find where Toronto is before they attacked it" rant.

The transit cops say they run into about three illegal guns a month on average. They have also seen riders and operators slain or badly wounded. Many of us have. So has Howard. Even this week a sawed-off shotgun and handgun were intercepted at the Dupont station. On Jan. 12 the TTC cops took down a man with what turned out to be a replica 9-mm handgun, fully loaded with blanks. It looked real and scared the heck out of everybody.

"And we take knives off people every day," Weatherbee said.

What else would you expect in a city of 1.4 million? The bad guys are armed. The good guys aren't. It's craziness. "They wouldn't let workers use a jackhammer without eye protection but expect us to go out and deal with hardened criminals," said one officer.

These men and women deserve better. If you can justify safe injection junkie sites you can entertain properly equipping and staffing our cops. Brinks guards are armed to carry money, and you could argue the cargo on the TTC is just as precious. Some on council get it.

"After spending three hours with these guys, I would not want to do this job," Saundercook told Sun city hall bureau chief Zen Ruryk.

It is dangerous. Just yesterday the cops were investigating the sexual assault of a 13-year-old girl at Kennedy station and I heard for the first time ever that one of the 9/11 hijackers had been queried by the transit cops on the subway on May 2, 2001.

TERRORIST ON BOARD

Several sources said the terrorist, who was believed to be in the second plane to hit the World Trade Center, was staying in Parkdale. "He had a Florida licence and the officer did a contact card on him that was later asked for by the FBI," one source said.

If this is accurate, and no one at the TTC was denying it, then this is one terrorist who found our subway system.

The point is big things happen on the TTC and with a very small staff they do a terrific job of dealing it. There are not enough pats on the back for the crime prevention they do, the mental health patients they help and how they keep order and protect all of those people and all of that expensive equipment.

"From a policing standpoint they are very professional," said TTC transit patrol Deputy Chief Fergie Reynolds -- a Toronto Police acting inspector on secondment.

They are good cops, sworn officers who have all the same authority as Toronto Police. They earn the same pay but what they don't have, as ridiculous as it seems, is the same equipment.

They make arrests of armed people without being armed themselves. Sadly, when one of these special constables gets murdered in the line of duty some fat cat on council will become a proponent of arming them.

Why wait for it to happen? Equip them now and pay for it with the 12.25% raise Moscoe and his friends tried to sneak through last year for themselves. They'd sure appreciate it and so would their families, who are not crazy about their loved ones being unarmed in Toronto's underground city of 1.4 million.

http://torontosun.com/News/TorontoAndGTA/2006/01/21/1404678-sun.html
 
Why is this even an issue with the public? I say we need alot more guns out there with security type personel. not only arm TTC workers but as someone said earlier the Coast Guard and the Canadian Border Guards.  It is rediculous that I can run the Canadian border and all the guards can do it telephone the local police. give me a break!  and alot of punks harrass and assault security personel alot more becuase they know they cannot do much. I say any security personel that is in a high risk area and obtains the proper licencing and training give them a gun..

Walrus
 
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