COMMENTARY: Canada’s military procurement legacy somehow gets even stupider

[dimsum]

Spoiler alert - it's about pistols.

If you’re feeling particularly lazy today, you can basically get the full benefit of this column by just finishing the next fragment of a sentence: the Canadian government is epically screwing up yet another military procurement and we should all be ashamed of ourselves for letting it happen.

Seriously. That’s it. If you’re slammed for time, you can move on. The rest of what’s about to follow is just maddening detail.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4753482/canada-military-pistols/?fbclid=IwAR0RymH-MQAa6Dc8cPHsO7TqMKQTb5FVbPt7YkW-6SWQvVK0ZPqh0aOig8c

 

[MilEME09]

To me the 10 year thing on all these major procurement's screams the GoC doesn't want to do any major projects in it's mandate, pistols should be an easy one to trial and select a winner, heck im sure deliveries would be quick too! this is a lack of political will to get it done, combined with an bureaucracy designed to keep people employed rather then get work done.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Maddeningly hilarious article lol

 

[dimsum]

To me the 10 year thing on all these major procurement's screams the GoC doesn't want to do any major projects in it's mandate, pistols should be an easy one to trial and select a winner, heck im sure deliveries would be quick too! this is a lack of political will to get it done, combined with an bureaucracy designed to keep people employed rather then get work done.

Well, it took some body bags and media shaming to get the Iltis taken out of Afghanistan and replaced with actual armoured vehicles on roads known to be rigged with bombs...

 

[Furniture]

It's good to see Canadian media turning their attention to the failure of a procurement system we have, maybe Canadians will start to pay attention.

 

[dimsum]

It's good to see Canadian media turning their attention to the failure of a procurement system we have, maybe Canadians will start to pay attention.

Starting?  Matt Gurney, amongst others, have done that for years.  It's usually buried somewhere on Page 45 but it's there.

 

[FSTO]

I was told yesterday by one of the civilians in our project that the reason why all Departments have to get their projects approved at TB is to slow down the spending of money. There is zero consideration toward capability and needs (this is why the status of water and housing at reserves are such a shyte show) its all about slowing down the flow of money.

 

[medicineman]

... this is a lack of political will to get it done, combined with an bureaucracy designed to keep people employed rather then get work done.

This...oh, and the thing where it has to be made in Canada by the highest (read only) bidder.  This should be easy - call H&K, FN, Sig Sauer, Glock, Colt Canada and maybe Barretta and say  "What is your most popular military and police sidearm?  How much for off the shelf 25K worth?  Meet us on range "X" in Gagetown in two weeks with 20 of your recommendations and enough ammo/mags to sink a ship.  Lastly, are you willing to allow a Canadian firm (preferably in Quebec) to maintain these under license or is there a Canadian subsidiary that these can be bought from, just to keep the GoC happy?"  The CAF then needs to CFTPO the range, range staff, and a number of small arms experts from the various branches that will be using these things, and put the weapons through their paces.  At End Ex, compare notes and issue recommendations; contracts could be done within a few weeks after. 


Of course, the government will buy the gun that wasn't recommended, because Colt Canada or Bombardier will get a license for it, redevelop/Canadianize it over a few years, then eventually get them out, at greater expense.  Meanwhile, the people at the pointy end are still using BHP's with re-re-re-re-rebored barrels that might launch the bullet generally forward with enough speed to tickle someone on impact.

MM

 

[FSTO]

The RCN has been using Sig Sauer pistols for years (since before 9-11). What has the RCAF been using? Is this just an Army problem?

 

[garb811]

The process for the replacement didn't "start" in 2016, it restarted in 2016. We went down this road in the 2008-2009 time frame as part of SARP 2, to the point of having a RFP out for final review by the pistol stakeholders if I recall correctly. Reason I remember it so vividly is because I was laughing at the combat arms insistence that a lanyard ring had to be included on the pistol...

 

[garb811]

The RCN has been using Sig Sauer pistols for years (since before 9-11). What has the RCAF been using? Is this just an Army problem?

It was a problem because Sig stopped making the P225 at one point which caused difficulty with procuring spare parts. Since then, Sig has recommenced making the P225 so I don't think that issue is as pressing.

It does make sense to go to one "fleet" of pistols though, rather than the Browning/P225/P226/... mashup that is out there now. If that happens, it is better to replace the P225 because at this point the earliest models are approaching the 25+ year mark, not to mention the "low" mag capacity.

 

[medicineman]

The RCN has been using Sig Sauer pistols for years (since before 9-11). What has the RCAF been using? Is this just an Army problem?

I think it's largely an Army thing...I went to Haiti in 2004 with my BHP being older than Dirt's Great Grand-Parents...I was happy I never had a jam with it and it struck the target I pointed it at on the range.  I was just as happy I never got into a fight with it though - I was concerned I'd need to throw it at someone if I wanted to cause maximal damage...

MM

 

[dimsum]

The RCN has been using Sig Sauer pistols for years (since before 9-11). What has the RCAF been using? Is this just an Army problem?

I *believe* the fighter folks use something else (Sig?) but the rest use BHPs. 

 

[Jarnhamar]

If you're worried about the browning not shooting when you want it to just load 9 rounds in the magazine.

Adding two dots of whiteout to the rear sight makes great homeade nightsights  ;D

 

[Loachman]

Best comment so far:

Paul Meyer

Some nice folks nearby to us did a LOT of testing and came up with the Sig Sauer P320 as their preferred option. It comes in 9mm and .45. As a plus, the pistol comes in about 42 total varieties, so the Liberals can supply a dfferent version to each gender of soldier.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Are there any current procurement stories that are good news. What has worked out on time, in quantity and quality.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Are there any current procurement stories that are good news. What has worked out on time, in quantity and quality.

Gender Employment Advisors?

 

[dangerboy]

Are there any current procurement stories that are good news. What has worked out on time, in quantity and quality.

The C19 Rifle (Ranger Rifle replacement) can be considered a success.

 

[medicineman]

If you're worried about the browning not shooting when you want it to just load 9 rounds in the magazine.

Adding two dots of whiteout to the rear sight makes great homeade nightsights  ;D

I loaded 10...because I was usually only given 2 mags and 20 rounds anyway.  It fired fine like that. 

Dimsum - IIRC, the fighter jocks got P226's bought for them for Gulf War 1...they still holding those over?

MM

 

[garb811]

I loaded 10...because I was usually only given 2 mags and 20 rounds anyway.  It fired fine like that. 

Dimsum - IIRC, the fighter jocks got P226's bought for them for Gulf War 1...they still holding those over?

MM

P225s were initially bought for pilots and MP plainclothes pers to replace the .38 special Colts in that time frame with more being bought as time went on. I was told the decision to go with the 225 over the 226 was specifically due to the smaller size of the grip from the single stack as opposed to the 226s double stack.

P226s entered the system later for other folks...