Comment - Terrorism apathy

[Flip]

I rather liked this remark in the Edmonton Sun today

http://www.edmontonsun.com/Comment/2007/09/10/4483523-sun.html

By PETER WORTHINGTON

As we approach the sixth anniversary of the attack on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, there is no shortage of media retrospectives, individual recollections and clinical assessments based on hindsight.

It's fashionable (and true) to note that our world changed that day. In the space of barely an hour on that sunny Tuesday morning, more people died than the number of Allies killed on D-Day or during Pearl Harbour -- some 3,000.

We tend to evaluate the past by what we know today, and what has happened since. Often, this is wisdom after the fact. Hindsight is 20/20 vision.

In the chaotic days following 9/11, there was general relief that it was George Bush who won the U.S. presidency, and not Al Gore. Bush was leader of the moment who rallied his country, reassured the people, showed neither panic nor hesitation in recognizing the enemy and vowing to eliminate it.

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PEACE AN ENGLISH WORD

We know, now, that in some mosques the imams and religious leaders preach peace in English, but are more militant in their own language. Little is done to deal with this reality.

A problem for moderate (i.e. most) Muslims is that the Koran is written in Arabic, which 90% of the world's more than one billion Muslim's don't read. This makes interpretation dicey when extremists are mostly Arabic-speakers.

Since 9/11, it's accepted that terrorism threatens the civilized world, but as yet no formula is agreed upon about how to correct or curb this menace.

This is the greatest concern of all.

I thought it an interesting comment - particularly today
And later on in the same paper..............

http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Canada/2007/09/10/4483542-sun.html

Mon, September 10, 2007

Terror link tough to sellAfghanistan losing 9/11 connection
By KATHLEEN HARRIS, NATIONAL BUREAU

OTTAWA -- The link between the scourge of terrorism and the bloody war in Afghanistan is fading fast from public memory, making the military mission a tough sell with Canada and its allies six years after 9/11, experts say.

As Canada appears set to pull troops from combat in February 2009, most predict other nations won't be waiting in line with replacements to the volatile southern region. Retired Maj.-Gen. Lewis MacKenzie said Canada's exit would leave a "hell of a vacuum," yet he doesn't expect other countries will pick up the slack without forceful persuasion.

He said it's time for Canada to publicly vent its frustration to convince other NATO countries to help shoulder the burden.

I don't agree with how she finished the article but I think we could argue that since we forget the lessons
of history we are doomed to repeat it.

It would be doing Grade 1 over and over and over again................. ;D

 

[GAP]

A problem for moderate (i.e. most) Muslims is that the Koran is written in Arabic, which 90% of the world's more than one billion Muslim's don't read. This makes interpretation dicey when extremists are mostly Arabic-speakers.

Hmmm....was not the Bible translated into multiple languages? Why not the Koran?

Interpretation of the bible in the middle ages was done by the clergy mainly because of the lack of literacy in the general populace, and the same parallel seems to hold for the Koran. They bible was translated, mass printed, and distributed over the past xxx years, but there is nothing I can find about something similar being done for the Koran....lack of interest?

 

[Flip]

Hmmm....was not the Bible translated into multiple languages? Why not the Koran?

Actually, I think the bible started out in a number of different languages.

And there are tranlations of the Koran in other languages but they're not considered "kosher". ;D

As an aside - I even have a copy of Mao's little red book in english!

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

Hmmm....was not the Bible translated into multiple languages? Why not the Koran?

Interpretation of the bible in the middle ages was done by the clergy mainly because of the lack of literacy in the general populace, and the same parallel seems to hold for the Koran. They bible was translated, mass printed, and distributed over the past xxx years, but there is nothing I can find about something similar being done for the Koran....lack of interest?

It was the Protestant reformation of the late medieval times that finally got the Bible translated into the vernacular (the language of the common person) before that it was translated from the original Greek and Hebrew into Latin and the priestly scholars were the only ones trusted to interpret the meaning of the sacred texts. The RC church still does not let lay people preach or interpret in church....it is the exclusive right of the clergy.
the Koran is available in many languages but the orthodox position is that the only valid version is the Arabic and the Imams and scholars must interpret for you...this is not lack of interest this is the doctrine of the mainstream.
the extremists tend to follow a brand of Islam called Wahabism that has origins in the area known now as Saudi Arabia and is extremely conservative. You are probably aware of the whole way in which they view the place of women in Islam by the way that women live in Saudi Arabia itself. If you're really interested in understanding the mind set there is plenty of information available on line....like all things on the internet though you need to consider the source.

 

[Flip]

It was the Protestant reformation of the late medieval times that finally got the Bible translated into the vernacular.

Yea, remember that Martin Luther guy? He was all "chapter and verse"
about everything!    ;D

One might say Islam is going through their "reformation".
There are rather large differences between Islam as a group
and the Catholic Church of the day however...........

 

[Cloud Cover]

As an aside - I even have a copy of Mao's little red book in english!

Is that the standard issue one given to CBC radio journalists?

 

[Flip]

Actually Whiskey601 there's an inscription;
"To my friend Jack, Warm and fuzzies, Mao" ;D

Actually - no inscription - but I've got the book!

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

Yea, remember that Martin Luther guy? He was all "chapter and verse"
about everything!    ;D

One might say Islam is going through their "reformation".
There are rather large differences between Islam as a group
and the Catholic Church of the day however...........

Of course there is but there I was talking about how scripture is regarded and the parallel of translation is there. there is no central authority in Islam as there is in Catholicism. I think the Saudis as controllers of the sacred sites at Medina and Mecca would love to see themselves as the central authority.

 

[DBA]

Of course there is but there I was talking about how scripture is regarded and the parallel of translation is there. there is no central authority in Islam as there is in Catholicism. I think the Saudis as controllers of the sacred sites at Medina and Mecca would love to see themselves as the central authority.

Christianity divided up and fought for a long time with some factions being very brutal in the repression of others. Still divided today but the fighting and repression are thankfully history in most parts of the world. I think hatred and intolerance while providing short term strength against other ideas and people are inherently self destructive. It allways turns inwards which weakens the movement. The problem is hatred is an emotion so needs no rational basis making it hard to defend against; first by those outside a given movement then by those inside not deemed 'pure' enough. The other problem is it can block reform as just about everything outside the movement was probably attacked as evil at some point so turning around and accepting any of it would be problematic.

I see this as one of the problems facing the Islamic world today. Hatred and intolerance have taken hold in several of the movements and organizations which is leading to self destruction and a paralysis blocking the reforms needed to bring them into the modern world on their own terms.

It's not limited to the Islamic world or it's movements of course as expressions of hatred seem par for the course in a lot of political posturing. For example I will never ever vote Liberal after Liberal MP Carolyn Parish's bald expression of hatred was met with indifference and no action by party leader Jean Chrétien. Appealing to base emotions like hatred is despicable and appalling to me. The human race should be aspiring to rationality not irrationality.

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

One of the problems that a lot of moderate muslims will tell you in private is that there is a lot of rigidity by the community to social progress, The Imam says so and that's the answer. Many christian denominations have been through this as well and continue to do so. the advent of the Enlightenment and liberal arts education has hopefully taught many westerners to think for themselves rather than accept the dictums of the leadership unexamined. Personally I would not be able to belong to a church (or any other organisation) that asks me to check my brains at the door.

When we look at some of the right wing movements in extreme Christianity there is a parellel to the stuff going on in Islam too...i.e. only their brand of Christian education or political canadidates or businessmen or yada yada. There was an interesting CBC documentary done that I saw a while ago called "God's Warriors" that highlights some pretty scary stuff in the right wing christian/political sphere that would lead me to believe that Islam is not the only religion with fanatical fundamentalists.

 

[canadianblue]

In Hoc Signo just to correct you I believe it was a CNN documentary [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orG59apfX9I] not a CBC documentary. One thing that I was amazed by was how much in common the three groups have. Many people also talk about terrorism as if it is confined to the muslim world, which is completely incorrect. As we know before September 11th the worst terrorist attack committed in the mainland US was executed by a white male right wing militia member. We also see the same thing with some of the extreme elements of the pro-life movement, and I'd even say that some of the right wing extremist groups [KKK, Aryan Nations, National Alliance] in the US could be deemed "terrorist" as well. Right now the truth is that we are seeing more and more groups down in the United States who say that the United States needs to go to war in order to hasten the second coming of Jesus, which is absurd to say the least. Anytime their is a combination of religion with war and politics, the only result will be a disaster.

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

In Hoc Signo just to correct you I believe it was a CNN documentary [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orG59apfX9I] not a CBC documentary. One thing that I was amazed by was how much in common the three groups have. Many people also talk about terrorism as if it is confined to the muslim world, which is completely incorrect. As we know before September 11th the worst terrorist attack committed in the mainland US was executed by a white male right wing militia member. We also see the same thing with some of the extreme elements of the pro-life movement, and I'd even say that some of the right wing extremist groups [KKK, Aryan Nations, National Alliance] in the US could be deemed "terrorist" as well. Right now the truth is that we are seeing more and more groups down in the United States who say that the United States needs to go to war in order to hasten the second coming of Jesus, which is absurd to say the least. Anytime their is a combination of religion with war and politics, the only result will be a disaster.

Thanks Sigs Guy...I think you're right...I saw it on the Passionate Eye but it was a re-broadcast I guess.

 

[Flip]

Sorry Sigs Guy,

Anytime their is a combination of religion with war and politics, the only result will be a disaster.

I can't go along with you here.  These factors are virtually inextricable.
I think we need to consider how/when religion has a positive effect on politics as well as negative effects.

We in the west consider out liberal values and rationalist thought great strengths, that coexist and have
evolved from religious commonalities.

The United States could not have evolved into the great nation it is without concerted effort by the
founders to accomodate each others' differences and embracing their common values.
The seperation of church and state is the most obvious accomodation.
Freedom of religion is another.
 
Yes, Christianity has a checkered past - Christians learn from their collective mistakes.
Muslims do to.........

The issue of TODAY is a big issue because Islam is going through a very large collective learning curve.
One in which we ALL will have a roll.- like it or not.

 

[geo]

If you put a muslim, a christian, a jew and a budhist in a room together, they will, for the most part, coexist peacefuly

The problem arises when you add members of same religions to the mix.

One Muslim will behave one way.  Give him the company of several other muslims & the possibility exists that one of them will feel it is necessary to prove just how muslim he is.  Then it's a game of one upmanship where each tries to outdo the fervour of the others..... Yetch! 

(BTW, you can probably insert pert much any religion into my statement & get same results)

 

[Flip]

Geo,

For the most part I will agree with your point...........
But I would add that it has a lot to do with where the individuals are from.

In large part, the religions can be considered interchageable in your analogy.
Denominational differences would be a competition factor.
Regional - cultural differences are a more immediate factor.

I should postscript all of this with ( this is my opinion )  ;D

 

[geo]

Yeah - I know,
Consider what the Christian religion was like some 700 yrs ago.  Spanish inquisition et all...
Unfortunately, Islam as a religion, which has it's foundation in the same region of the world and looks back at the old testament as "gospel" is some 700 years younger than ours.

Should we consider current difficulties with Islam as being adolescent growing pains?

 

[Flip]

Should we consider current difficulties with Islam as being adolescent growing pains?

To a limited extent..........Add some Arab nationalism and some
"blame America" and you just about have it.
I suspect there is an adolescent like, self esteem problem and America
represents modernity and an affront to past Islamic empires.

Just to be clear - I don't think the west has a difficulty with Islam.
Just a particular expression of it.

 

[geo]

Ayup!

 

[Greymatters]

Where was the apathy part mentioned? Or was that your words?

 

[Flip]

Grey Matter,

Apathy was in the title of the comment by Peter Worthington.

Was I unclear? - if so let me know....