Combat Arms Officer failure rate

[Lethbridge U]

Since being interested in the CF as an Officer I have been waffling back and forth regarding the occupation that is a right fit for me. I have narrowed it down to two, namely MARS Officer and Armour Officer. However, I have learned that upwards of 40-50% of Mars Officers will never make it, due to the rigors of training and weeding out. This shocking statistic has led me to shift my attention back over to Armour, but I have not come across any similar ratios. Can anyone shed some light regarding the success/failure rates of Officers who go into the Combat Arms (specifically Armour)? Do most who make it through BOTC usually make it through the subsequent training and evaluation (Phases I, II, III)?

 

[mdh]

LU

There was a thread on this very topic about a year and half ago offered up by a serving armour officer IIRC; try searching under armour and failure rates; it was a pretty good discussion IIRC.

mdh

 

[Lethbridge U]

Thank you MDH, I was able to track down the one you were referring too. Here is the link for those who are also curious: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/21561.0.html

As per Pipers comment, well there could be a hint of validity to what you are saying, but it is also the shroud of mystery (about what to expect) which concerns me. I think working for the CF in any capacity is unlike any job in the civilian world, so its hard to determine if you have the right mix of skills/attributes that will make you successful in the job you apply for. I think the bottom line is (and I'm borrowing a quote from someone else here) is that you just have to show up at the gates and find out for yourself. Not exactly comforting words (nor wholly informative) but possibly the only real answer.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

Ah, memories of my earlier days here...

In all seriousness, I can't quote you current failure statistics for Armour Officer.  When I was going through it varied from 30 to 60 %.

Most occupations that are "operators" (Cbt Arms, Mars, Pilot, did I miss any?) will tend to have somewhat higher failure rates than more academic ones or ones that are not in contact with the enemy.  Many people are suprised by how hard it is and that they can even fail ("but the recruiting centre loved me...They Loved Me..I need to call them..This is an outrage!")  The recruiting centre thinks that you have the potential, and a board that doesn't know you at all selected you.  You are then measured against a standard when you go through your training.  You won't be cut any slack, as you will be responsible for the lives of soldiers/sailors/airmen.

This does not mean that you should be disuaded from trying for one of these occupations.  If you want to go MARS, to not do so out of fear of failure means you've already failed (a circular argument, but there it is).  My observation is that officers who fail a given occupation's training for reasons related to that occupation but are still assessed as having leadership potential will get a crack at a different MOC.  You lose some time, but the bottom line is that at least you know in your heart of hearts that you tried

Best of luck,

2B

 

[paracowboy]

Can anyone shed some light regarding the success/failure rates of Officers who go into the Combat Arms (specifically Armour)? Do most who make it through BOTC usually make it through the subsequent training and evaluation (Phases I, II, III)?

who gives a shit? You plannin' on bein' a statistic? Either you have the parts to sign the line and do the job, or you don't. If you're waffling now, what are you going to be like when you have to make a real decision?

 

[Tracker 23A]

There is always one comment for a request on information in making a "guided decision" in joining the CF a turn-off.   

Geesh it was only a question, who cares what it was about!

 

[Old Sweat]

You have to earn the privilege of leading Canadian soldiers and the standards that will be demanded of you in training are very high. I am saying that as someone who has gone through the system and later had the responsibility of training officers. The success rate probably averages fifty percent, although it will go through peaks and vallies. Do not expect an easy ride, but do not worry about quotas. Are you good enough to beat the odds in a fair, but hard, system?

I was aware of the potential for not making the grade when I opted to go on officer training instead of the junior NCO course. One of my reasons was that it was the harder road and I was young and self-confident enough to go that route.

 

[mover1]

Remember that this is possibly a career that you are going to be doing for a big chunk of your life. Do what you want to do and if you want it bad enough you will succeed.

 

[Journeyman]

I have narrowed it down to two, namely MARS Officer and Armour Officer.

Some people have attempted to combine the two....  ;D

 

[paracowboy]

There is always one comment for a request on information in making a "guided decision" in joining the CF a turn-off.     

Geesh it was only a question, who cares what it was about!

Give your head a shake.
1. you're acting like I jacked the kid up. As a former Sgt, you of all people should know better.
2. as a CFR, you of all people should know that if he does find the parts and signs the line, he has a long shitty road ahead of him full of tough decisions an' there won't be anyone to hold his hand. Many of those decisions are literally life and death for others.
3. if some plain speech turns him off the Army, fine. Better than havin' him waste tax payer money to find out he can't hang.
4. the sooner he adapts to army mentality, the easier his transition from civvie-punk to OCdt will be, won't it? And the less culture-shock he goes through, the easier time he'll have in training, right?
5. maybe he'll get pissed enough at me to sign the line just to show me up. Just so he can say "Fuck him!" Cool. If that's what works, groovy. I'll give him a wallet-size he can pin in his beret, and spit on my picture every morning.

I'm not an asshole because I like bein' an asshole. I'm an asshole because I like helpin' youngsters reach their potential.

 

[043]

Give your head a shake.
1. you're acting like I jacked the kid up. As a former Sgt, you of all people should know better.
2. as a CFR, you of all people should know that if he does find the parts and signs the line, he has a long shitty road ahead of him full of tough decisions an' there won't be anyone to hold his hand. Many of those decisions are literally life and death for others.
3. if some plain speech turns him off the Army, fine. Better than havin' him waste tax payer money to find out he can't hang.
4. the sooner he adapts to army mentality, the easier his transition from civvie-punk to OCdt will be, won't it? And the less culture-shock he goes through, the easier time he'll have in training, right?
5. maybe he'll get pissed enough at me to sign the line just to show me up. Just so he can say "frig him!" Cool. If that's what works, groovy. I'll give him a wallet-size he can pin in his beret, and spit on my picture every morning.

I'm not an ******* because I like bein' an *******. I'm an ******* because I like helpin' youngsters reach their potential.

Outstanding!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Tracker 23A]

Give your head a shake.
1. you're acting like I jacked the kid up. As a former Sgt, you of all people should know better.
2. as a CFR, you of all people should know that if he does find the parts and signs the line, he has a long shitty road ahead of him full of tough decisions an' there won't be anyone to hold his hand. Many of those decisions are literally life and death for others.
3. if some plain speech turns him off the Army, fine. Better than havin' him waste tax payer money to find out he can't hang.
4. the sooner he adapts to army mentality, the easier his transition from civvie-punk to OCdt will be, won't it? And the less culture-shock he goes through, the easier time he'll have in training, right?
5. maybe he'll get pissed enough at me to sign the line just to show me up. Just so he can say "frig him!" Cool. If that's what works, groovy. I'll give him a wallet-size he can pin in his beret, and spit on my picture every morning.

I'm not an ******* because I like bein' an *******. I'm an ******* because I like helpin' youngsters reach their potential.

1.  You sound just a LITTLE bitter, just a bit.

2.  Yes you do sound rather harsh.

and moving on.......

 

[Echo9]

Being one who started Armour, broke himself on Phase 2 and then went Engineer, I can perhaps provide some perspective here. 

1.  Both MARS and Armour have a bit of a reputation of eating their young, more than any other trade.
2.  My phase 2 started with 27, and finished with something like 11.  Only 2 were training failures.  The remaining were medical (like me).  For those who remember, this was the strep A course.
3.  In my opinion, based on what I know now, the course was not managed professionally.  There were some excellent instructors, but overall they did a better job beasting candidates than training them.
4.  Also in retrospect, the criteria used to determine success or failure of candidates on Phase 2 was based more on physical toughness than ability to lead.  This wasn't unique to the Armour school, since I'd have the same criticism of the Engineer school the following year.

Take all of this with a grain of salt, since it's from about 15 years ago, and the training system is substantially different now.

 

[geo]

Uhhh... it hasn' t changed all that much E9

Basic phases are hard & gruelling. They ask a lot out of ya and, by asking so much, bring out some of the best in everyone.  Most junior officers didn't know they had it in em.

But the attrition rate is still considerable. 

 

[Lethbridge U]

"I'm not an ******* because I like being' an *******. I'm an ******* because I like helping' youngsters reach their potential."

You should really be awarded the medal for motivational speaking. If only there were more of you in our recruiting centres, or better yet, our public school system, the world would be far more encouraged!
I'm only kidding here, Paracowboy, I actually appreciate what you are saying because I often think the recruiting centres and recruiting videos give a polished (less accurate) view of military life. So, I'm picking up what are putting down!
However, these success/failure rates are staggering and are nothing to balk at. I think many potential recruits are just focusing on getting in the door, but what many don't realize is that this is only a fraction of the real "interview process". I don't think it's wrong to be intimidated by the professional hazing that goes on, this is not a sign of non-devotion or weakness. I think as a person with a fair amount of education and experience under my belt, these are fair questions to ask before jumping in blindly.
For example, suppose you really wanted to work for NASA (hypothetically speaking) but you were told that the interview would last the better part of 3 years, you were going to be pushed to the brink of physical/mental exhaustion (not to mention verbally abused), and oh ya....only a small fraction are going to make it. Many risk takers would simply say, "whats the problem here", but those who are calculated risk takers are going to require a little more information before they take the plunge. Investing 3 years of my life only to be given my termination slip does not sound like time well spent. Just being honest
And by the way, I don't think doubt should on the same level of uselessness...just my 2 cents.

By the way, thank for everyone for providing your insight and experience, this is truely valuable information that I think recruits should be aware of.

 

[17thRecceSgt]

The process is there to do its best to get the people that can succeed.  The "A" in CFAT is Aptitude, not Ability   ;D

But, being that I have worked on some the the Phase courses in the Armour School, and the NCO courses too, I will say that you are given the training, and then they assess you on your ablity to apply it.  Its not a complete witch hunt either.   ;D  They do expect alot of you...as so will the soldiers you are leading.

My 2 cents.

I went to the Armour School in...'97?  for my 6A (Sgt's) course.  It was demanding, fast paced.  I loved it.  Maybe you will too.  But you never know if you like ice cream until you have ice cream, no matter how many commercials you see on it.   

The CF recruiting website has a "newer" video up for Armour Officer. 

 

[Long in the tooth]

On the NCO side, Infantry leadership courses can be brutal as well.  On one course 15 of 18 failed which resulted in a Regimental inquiry.  On another course I instructed on only 5 passed out of 65!  These failure rates are far above any reasonable standard and are seriously disruptive to units requiring leaders and demoralizing for those who fail.

 

[probum non poenitet]

Going through infantry officer training  you need to be physically fit for starters.(My course 37 started 12 passed, what fun)

We would run 8 k in under 40 minutes every morning, stopping to do upper body just long enough to tighten up the muscles. Usually you are running on 2-4 hours of sleep a night.

You also need to be able to carry moderate to heavy loads, and have endurance ... ie digging, carrying, marching, and then to top it off THINKING in a fatigued state of mind.

A lot of the failures are things breaking - knee injuries etc.  Of all of us who passed, I think we were all hurt. It's just whether you ride it out or not.

The technical bits aren't too hard - writing orders, navigating, radio procedure, assigning tasks - the trick comes down to three things: physical, mental, and emotional stamina.

Physical: If you are weak to start with, your body will break down and you will be more prone to injury, illness, or you will collapse. GET FIT BEFORE YOU TRAIN. If you are suffering physically, everything else goes downhill.

Mental: Lack of sleep, mental stress (being yelled at, threatened with failure, given tight/impossible timings, given too many tasks), lack of experience will wear you down. This is deliberate.
If you are physically fit, it is easier to handle. Almost always if the body is working, the mind is too ... if the body breaks down, the mind follows soon. BE PHYSICALLY FIT WHEN YOU ARRIVE.
Also, previous experience with mental concentration helps. It's like driving eight hours on a dark highway in a blizzard. It's not that hard in itself, but you have to be constantly alert, for a long, long time, and it wears you out. If you slip up you crash.
If you lose your mental edge, you will spin out of control, and freak out on fellow candidates for not polishing the urinal or other minor crap. Yelling, voice cracking, eyes bugging out. It would be funny if it weren't so sad.
You can see troops start to unravel a day or two before they are completely unwound and either quit or fail a test, or come up with some excuse why they have to leave.

Emotional: Don't be a quitter. Many who fail allow themselves to fail - exaggerating injuries, or convincing themselves 'the course is b.s.'.  So what, it's a few weeks. If it's b.s., pass it, then bitch about how stupid it was. If you pass, you have your qual, and you won't care much anyhow.

So, will you be one of the failures? If you are physically weak, mentally weak, or emotionally weak, probably.
If you decide NOW you WILL pass, you probably will. But that translates to getting your butt to the gym, pushing weights, working cardio, and TELLING yourself the only way you are going to fail is ... you ain't. Get mentally tough, visualise success.
And if you hurt yourself legitimately, and you don't wuss out at the first blister, you'll get another shot. (ie if you break a leg, or get pneumonia, or something). The staff can tell the difference.

So, will you fail? ... it's on you.
But I never saw a tough, determined, moderately intelligent candidate wash out, unless they got a really crappy break and got hurt, in which case they came back. Or sucked it up and finished like a walking zombie.

If you want some concrete answers, contact the school, and ask what kind of PT standards they have, and EXCEED those numbers by a longshot before you show up.

And throw yourself down a flight of stairs every morning.  ;D

 

[xmarcx]

And throw yourself down a flight of stairs every morning.  ;D

Personally, I've been using the undergraduate training system to practice never sleeping or eating and walking everywhere to save the $3 bus fare, but I feel this would be an invaluable addition to my regimen. As an expert in the field, do you provide a personal training service where you throw infantry officer wannabes down the stairs for a nominal fee?

Excellent post though, a far more realistic description than I've heard from others about what the training entails!

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I think there's been more than enough motivational advice. If your going to make it, it's up to you. If you can't garner enough from what's already been given, we can't help.

PM a Mod if your still confused.