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Cluster Munition Treaty and Canada

Robert0288 said:
I don't suppose we can just sell them back to the US or even give them away and pay for shipping?

I do not think our government will want to do that, as it will not actually get rid of any of the cluster bombs. Likely it would actually help further the use of cluster bombs as we would be giving them to countries who are more apt to use them than Canada is.

Perhaps this is a strategic mistep, I personally would not know. However, if it became too big of an issue during an actual war, especially against countries using the bombs against us, I ASSUME it would be quite simple to scrap our declaration and begin using these cluster bombs again.
 
Compared to dead soldiers and lost wars, how expensive would it be to pull out of idiotic, feel-good weapons treaties like this one and accoutre ourselves like a real army and not some armed civil servants? Probably cheaper than throwing away 23m worth of effective weapons in order to gain some ephemeral political capital with...who? The UN? Bogota-Lima?
 
The treaty that prevents use from using them prevents us from selling them to someone else that would use them.  Canada has the M483A1 projectile which has 88 submunitions.  There are varying sources but the dud rate is between 2 and 4 percent, but could be much higher.  During the gulf war the Marines suffered numerous casualties when the maneuvered into areas where the DPICM had been fired.  This restricted some of their follow on operations.

The M483A1 projectile was brought into production around 1975 and the submunitions cannot handle to g forces generated by some of the modern propelling charges.  This alone could prevent these projectiles from being used in training or operations even if the treaty didn't prevent it.
 
Cluster munitions are an important weapon in the arsenal. The Cluster Munitions Treaty is an attempt to weaken the west by the leftists of the world. Many countries are more than willing to tie their own hands. War is brutal and always will be.The goal is to kill the enemy. If your position is being attacked by a tank battalion or a human wave of infantry you would want all available weapons to defeat the threat. Multiple nuclear warheads have been a fact of life for a long time. They arent banned and are a much bigger threat than cluster munitions. Anyway take note that Russia,China,India and Pakistan havent signed on and never will.
 
ammocat said:
The M483A1 projectile was brought into production around 1975 and the submunitions cannot handle to g forces generated by some of the modern propelling charges.  This alone could prevent these projectiles from being used in training or operations even if the treaty didn't prevent it.
I don't have the ref at the moment but I don't think it is the propelling charge that is the problem but the effect of nearby munitions exploding while some are still in the air that disrupts the firing mechanism of the late arrivals. One way to deal with the high rate of duds is to include a command or programmable self destruct or delay mechanism. That would also address concerns for non-combatants to some extent.

Anyway, coffee hasn't made it's magic yet, so here is a question: does this treaty apply to scatterable mines as well? Are there other agreements restricting our use of scatterable mines?

 
PanaEng said:
....does this treaty apply to scatterable mines as well? Are there other agreements restricting our use of scatterable mines?
Because the actual treaty name is "Convention on Cluster Munitions," [link] you'd think that it would apply to scatterable mines. Article 1, Para 3 however specifically states, "This Convention does not apply to mines."

The other key, relevant treaty is the "Convention on the Prohibition of the Use, Stockpiling, Production and Transfer of Anti-Personnel Mines and on their Destruction" (for the benefit of short-winded people, more commonly known as the "Ottawa Treaty"). [link] It is distinct from the Cluster Munitions Treaty, specifically not including them. It does however prohibit Canadian use of anti-pers mines, whether emplaced scatterably or more deliberately.

The non-signatories of the Ottawa Treaty include US, Russia, China, India & Pakistan, most of the Middle East....and Poland (lingering distrust of Germans and/or Russians?  ;)  )
 
tomahawk6 said:
Cluster munitions are an important weapon in the arsenal. The Cluster Munitions Treaty is an attempt to weaken the west by the leftists of the world. Many countries are more than willing to tie their own hands. War is brutal and always will be.The goal is to kill the enemy. If your position is being attacked by a tank battalion or a human wave of infantry you would want all available weapons to defeat the threat. Multiple nuclear warheads have been a fact of life for a long time. They arent banned and are a much bigger threat than cluster munitions. Anyway take note that Russia,China,India and Pakistan havent signed on and never will.

I don't think it's an attempt to weaken the west as much as a decision born from a lofty unrealistic mindset. I agree war is brutal and we should the biggest scariest meanest guys out there.

Handicapping ourselves enables our enemies to fight us longer and more effectively thus causing more collateral damage.

Does anyone for a second think that when the big push comes to shove Russia, China, India et el will honour even the pacts they did manage to sign on to?
 
ObedientiaZelum said:
I don't think it's an attempt to weaken the west as much as a decision born from a lofty unrealistic mindset. I agree war is brutal and we should the biggest scariest meanest guys out there.

Handicapping ourselves enables our enemies to fight us longer and more effectively thus causing more collateral damage.

Does anyone for a second think that when the big push comes to shove Russia, China, India et el will honour even the pacts they did manage to sign on to?

problem is, either way; the effect is the same and we DO honour our weapons treaties, sadly.
 
Canada likely further target for criticism on bomb stance
PM’s inaction on cluster bombs at odds with position on Syria chemical attack, say treaty supporters

Chris Cobb
Ottawa Citizen
08 September 2013


OTTAWA — Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s public outrage over the use of chemical weapons in Syria conflicts with his government’s refusal to support a worldwide ban on cluster bombs, say advocates for an international treaty aimed at eradicating the deadly weapons.

International criticism of Canada’s stand on cluster munitions has been constant during the past few years and is expected to continue this week as government and civil society groups gather Monday in Lusaka, Zambia, for a summit on the progress of a 2008 treaty to eradicate clusters.

And a global report released late last week accused Canada of being out of step with the 83 countries that have signed and ratified the treaty.

Cluster weapons, the deadlier cousin of landmines, scatter small, multicoloured bomblets that have a high failure rate on impact but can remain deadly indefinitely if disturbed. The majority of victims are civilians, overwhelmingly children.

Syria has been widely condemned for using clusters during its current internal conflict — a condemnation that is repeated in the 2013 edition of the Cluster Munition Monitor, which reports that at least 165 Syrian civilians were among the world’s cluster casualties from July 2012 through June this year.

Canada was one of the first countries to sign the treaty in Oslo almost five years ago but domestic legislation is needed before the government can formally ratify and be bound by the treaty.

When Prime Minister Stephen Harper prorogued parliament the controversial ratification bill had still not become law and its future now remains uncertain.

“The only users of this inhumane weapon now are desperate dictators like Moammar Gadhafi and Bashar al-Assad,” said Paul Hannon, executive director of the anti-mine and cluster advocate group Mines Action Canada. “When Parliament returns it needs to amend the legislation to send a strong message that Canada will never support the use of cluster munitions by anyone anywhere.

The use of chemical weapons in Syria has overshadowed the use of clusters, added Hannon.

“But it’s a similar situation,” he said. “It’s an indiscriminate and inhumane weapon and there is an international norm against its use.

“We’re hoping that the widespread condemnation of Syria’s use of cluster munitions will help the government realize that this is a seriously problematic weapon,” he added, “and they should not contemplate assisting anyone to use it in the future.”

The treaty prohibits the use, production, transportation and stockpiling of cluster bombs and requires that ratifying countries clear all cluster remnants within 10 years and provide humanitarian assistant to those maimed by the weapons.

The main issue is a clause known as Article 21 — also known as the interoperability clause — that was included in the original treaty over the objections of some countries to legally protect the armed forces of ratifying nations if they are on joint cluster-bombing operations with military from non-ratifying countries.

The United States, China and Russia are among the few countries that have stated they will never sign the treaty. All three are major producers and stockpilers of the weapon.

Canada does not produce or use clusters and other than its military relationship with the United States has no vested interest in the weapon. But critics of Canada’s ratification legislation say it contains so many exceptions that it no longer adheres to the spirit of the treaty.

As currently written, the legislation would, among other exceptions, allow Canadian commanders leading joint operations to order troops from “non-signatory” countries to use clusters or permit Canadian pilots on joint operations to drop them.

These “opt out” clauses in the legislation caused the resignation last year of veteran negotiator Earl Turcotte, who led Canada’s delegation when the treaty was drafted. The treaty’s Article 21 was never mean to “aid and abet” the use of clusters, he said after resigning.

“Most tragically,” he said, “it will make Canada complicit in the use of a weapon that for good reason we have supposedly banned. Having led the delegation I can say that without doubt this legislation is the worst of any of the countries that have so far ratified the treaty.”

The federal government denies this and says the bill meets all of Canada’s humanitarian obligations under the treaty.

While Hannon expects more criticism of Canada at the Lusaka meeting, he says there will also be a push to prepare humanitarian aid for Syrians.

“We need to be prepared to move in quickly once the conflict ends” he said, “because we know there will be remnants of cluster munitions left behind and they will be a great danger to refugees and displaced people as they start to move back to their homes.”
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Canada+likely+further+target+criticism+bomb+stance/8885136/story.html
 
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