Close Combat Vehicle: Canada to buy another AFV (& keeping LAV III & TLAV)

[TangoTwoBravo]

Gentlemen and Ladies:

Is there not a sort of implied contract between the CF and a person they hire? The CF agrees to kit you and then train you and employ you .... If you sign on the dotted line. On civvy street if an employer says "Sure, we'll hire you.....But we will NOT guarantee training so you can do your job or even a job if we are able to train you!", You can be d**n sure the prospective employee would rapidly say "F**k You!!" and start looking for another  job!


All you naysayers can hang me out to dry for B**ching but I really couldn't give a flying f**k what you think! "BOHICA" Just DOESN'T impress me much anymore

Whatever happened to "Loyalty Up and Loyalty Down"


Certified Cynic

Are you posting in the right thread? In addition, I am not a mod here, but your use of profanity and posting style do not lend themselves to discusion. Why don't you hire out space in a newspaper if all you want to do is yell and don't want to hear anything contrary to your view?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

t22a,

It's about time you wound your neck in. We've had just about enough of your constant ranting and vitrol. You've stated your point. You're being ignored. Get over it. Ranting even louder is not going to change things. Go take a pill and get away from the keyboard, or at least unplug it and type to your heart's content. There is being a cynic and then there is being an obnoxious boor. I'm sure there are other forums where your righteous indignation would be more welcome.

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[ironduke57]

A bit late but here is the vid I mentioned:
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj9QiVri13Q
(A bit shaky.)
------------------------------------------
Also the armor level B was already dropped years ago as the C level was small enough that the PUMA is with it inside the train space clearance. Also the basic armor level A is on the same level as the uparmored CV90. So were the upgrade potential of the CV90 ends the one of the PUMA just starts.

Regards,
ironduke57

 

[Dean22]

I have been researching the CV90 and Puma for a while and in my unprofessional opinion on the matter of tanks (I only know kinetic mathematics and basic tank warfare principles) I would say the CV90 fits Canada's wants and needs and will most likely be the victor unless the program is cut or the CV90 fails IED/Anti-mine testing (which, I have read in a news article is what the Canadian military is currently testing on a Risk Reduction Unit.

http://communities.canada.com/ottawacitizen/blogs/defencewatch/archive/2009/11/04/the-risk-reduction-unit-blowing-up-a-close-combat-vehicle-for-the-canadian-army.aspx


CV90 vs. Puma


CV90 Armament:
(Export Version)
30mm Bushmaster II Autocannon (Lack's anti-air capabilities according to experts (AHEAD rounds) only 1.24g) (200 RTF, 200 storage)
(Secondary) 7.62 Browning Machine gun (Retains the ability to shoot through some buildings/armoured cover)

(Variants)
40mm Bofors Autocannon (has anti-tank and anti-air capabilities) (24 rounds per magazine)
35/50 Bushmaster III Cannon
105mm tank gun/turret (however the odds of Canada buying this variant are about the same as Canada purchasing the MGS in my opinion)
120mm Rheinmetall (Same L55 as the Leo 2's and with the newest round available has been argued to be stronger than American Abrams DU rounds)
AAV 40mm Bofors Autocannon and can elevate gun higher


Puma Armament

30mm Bushmaster II Autocannon (Lack's anti-air capabilities according to experts (AHEAD rounds) only 1.24g) (200 RTF, 200 storage)
(Secondary) 5.56mm HK MG4 higher ROF, less penetration, crew can use ammo in personal weapons. 1000 RTF, 1000 in storage. (can be changed to MG3).
EuroSpike Spike LR missile launcher. (Needed for anti-tank/bunker kill capabilities so Canada would need to purchase these in a modern war or hope the accompanying Leo 2's kill all armour threats.)


CV90 Protection

Protects against 14.5mm armour-piercing rounds and frontally against 30mm APFSDS rounds.
Additional armour kits protects all around from 30mm APFSDS.
Unknown IED/hollow-charge defense capabilities but vehicle is battle tested and almost no casualties have been suffered with the vehicle so it can be assumed that the vehicle is good to go against RPG's since one of it's engagements encountered several RPG's. However, IED testing is on-going.
Smoke Grenade Launchers (unknown #)
Cannot make 450mm ground clearance with the stabilized 40mm Bofors gun.
Unknown Crew Survivability.
IR Suppressing Paint.
High elevation target.
Crew can be hit in the turret in the hull down position unlike Puma.
Unknown if Infantry have rear sight view.
Unknown if vehicle can equip Trophy/Quick kill systems.


Puma Protection

Protects against 14.5mm armour-piercing rounds and frontally against 30mm APFSDS rounds.
Additional armour kits protects all around from 30mm APFSDS.
Not battle tested but is "said" to defeat hollow charges.
Is said to defeat shaped charges and explosives up to 22 pounds while, retaining the 450mm clearance.
Smoke Launchers on vehicle (unknown #)
Crew compartment is one "box" so crew can "replace" each other.
Infantry can "slightly" open back door to scout/shoot from.
IR Suppressing Paint.
External Gas Tanks (good idea or bad idea? It was a bad idea on the Tiger Mk 1 in World War 2 and caused many deaths of the vehicle)
Vehicle is a low target.
Crew cannot be hurt in the hull down position as turret is unmanned.
Infantry have a rear sight view.
Designed so it can equip the Trophy/Quick kill systems.


CV90 Mobility

Speed of 70km/hr means vehicle can keep up with Leopard 2's.
Operational Range 320km.
410 kW Engine
Amazing mobility in snow and hot weather conditions. (So no matter what it can always keep up with the Leo's)
8 Troopers in back and very roomy from the looks of videos (Soldiers do not have to crawl out of the back and can simply jump out almost standing). (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8PzFICkVSU)
Vehicle weighs 23 tonnes at basic weight.
Easier to transport then Puma.


Puma Mobility

Speed of 70km/hr means vehicle can keep up with Leopard 2's.
Operational Range of 600km.
800 kW engine.
6 Troopers in vehicle and soldiers practically have to crawl out of the Puma.
31.5 Tonnes at basic weight.
Unknown off road capabilities.
Designed to have Three Puma's + armour kits aboard four A400's
Capacity of the A400 is 37,000 kg while the Capacity of the C-130J Super Hercules is 19,090 kg which, can be an issue for Canada if vehicles are transported that way.
Puma "seems" to bounce while driving as if it's "hitting" waves. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3bG3x0Jwbs)

Cost of 1 CV90 = $6,524,804 CAD
Cost of 1 Puma = $11,071,500 CAD

Cost of 100 CV90's = $652,480,400 CAD
Cost of 100 Puma's = $1,107,150,000 CAD



P.S. I know this is an IFV but do you guys think this will be an Infantry soldier vehicle purchase or an Armoured soldier vehicle purchase.

It just seems like a crime against nature to buy these for Infantry soldiers while, the Armoured soldiers are using Coyotes.

Also, why do Infantry soldiers drive IFV's in the CF where all over the world IFV's are driven by Armoured soldiers everywhere else?

 

[Rick Goebel]

Dean 22 said:

"Also, why do Infantry soldiers drive IFV's in the CF where all over the world IFV's are driven by Armoured soldiers everywhere else?"

I'm not sure where this comes from as British infantry drive Warriors and US infantry drive Bradleys.

 

[Dean22]

Dean 22 said:

"Also, why do Infantry soldiers drive IFV's in the CF where all over the world IFV's are driven by Armoured soldiers everywhere else?"

I'm not sure where this comes from as British infantry drive Warriors and US infantry drive Bradleys.

I thought Cavalry Scouts drove Bradleys. Also, the Puma is part of the German Armoured core.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

You thought wrong to a certain extent... there are two versions of the Bradley Fighting Vehicle...

The M2 Bradley IFV (Infantry Fighting Vehicle) and M3 Bradley CFV (Cavalry Fighting Vehicle) are American infantry fighting vehicles manufactured by BAE Systems Land and Armaments, formerly United Defense.

As with other infantry fighting vehicles, the Bradley is designed to transport infantry with armor protection while providing covering fire to suppressing enemy troops and armored vehicles. The M2 holds a crew of three: a commander, a gunner and a driver; as well as six fully equipped soldiers. The M3 mainly conducts scout missions and carries two scouts in addition to the regular crew of three.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I thought Cavalry Scouts drove Bradleys. Also, the Puma is part of the German Armoured core.

For the last time. It's Armoured CORPS!!

 

[Dean22]

Sorry Corps*

By the way very interesting video on the effectiveness of the 40mm bofors L70 stabilized gun on the CV90.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3hC0vsZ5-8

 

[Dean22]

Jeez, if they were going to put a hold on this purchase then what were all those reserve "cuts" for?

By the way does the Puma/CV90/Marder only replace Infantry soldier's LAV III or does it also replace the Coyote? (Yes, I know Coyote is surveillance and the other vehicles are troop carriers but you can just as easily replace the back of the vehicle???)

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

The CV90 could replace the Coyote, but that is/was not the intent. There is a separate project for that (TAPV).

 

[Michael OLeary]

Jeez, if they were going to put a hold on this purchase then what were all those reserve "cuts" for?

It's not like we were writing a $2 billion cheque this year to buy them.  Postponing the project only saves us current costs for ongoing work in preparation for the bidding process.  Not big savings now, but the decision does delay some costs as well as push the big expense off into the future.

 

[COBRA-6]

By the way does the Puma/CV90/Marder only replace Infantry soldier's LAV III or does it also replace the Coyote? (Yes, I know Coyote is surveillance and the other vehicles are troop carriers but you can just as easily replace the back of the vehicle???)

The 108 or so CCV's would have augmented the LAV III fleet, not replaced it.

Also, the CCV may have been a wheeled veh like a Boxer or VBCI in addition to the tracked vehs you mentioned...

 

[Dean22]

The CV90 could replace the Coyote, but that is/was not the intent. There is a separate project for that (TAPV).

You mean armoured soldiers will be using a truck (TAPV) for recce instead of the Coyote? 

While, the British will be using the CV90 with a different gun for recce?

http://www.casr.ca/doc-news-cv90-demonstrator.htm


If TAPV is a Truck or Car and most armoured soldiers begin using that instead of the Coyote I think i'll scratch off armoured soldier as a future choice especially since I am too tall to drive tanks.

 

[Dean22]

The 108 or so CCV's would have augmented the LAV III fleet, not replaced it.

Also, the CCV may have been a wheeled veh like a Boxer or VBCI in addition to the tracked vehs you mentioned...

I didn't know they were looking at wheeled variants since I thought the entire program was made so that IFV's could support Main Battle tanks at the same speed as a MBT and over the same terrain (since the LAV 3 fleet according to project cannot go over rough terrain well enough to keep up with tanks).

http://www.casr.ca/bg-army-close-combat-vehicle.htm

I just read the main candidates off of that website (CV90, Puma, Marder).

I am rooting for the CV90.

 

[McG]

Jeez, if they were going to put a hold on this purchase then what were all those reserve "cuts" for?

"They" cannot legally move money between Vote 1 and Vote 5.  Reserve pay cannot be converted into capital procurement funds.

 

[AndyRad]

Now from what i have read on the CV90,  my opinion seems to carry across that such a vehicle like that could fill multiple roles, as such:
IFV: CV9030
ANTI-AIR: CV9040 AAV (TriAD)
RECCE: CV90 with the upgraded IR package

What I like about this possibility is the simplicity in logistics with it, more common spares across more trades. Probably give the VEH-techs a bit of a break. Not to mention that it is a mean looking vehicle!!

 

[Dean22]

Now from what i have read on the CV90,  my opinion seems to carry across that such a vehicle like that could fill multiple roles, as such:
IFV: CV9030
ANTI-AIR: CV9040 AAV (TriAD)
RECCE: CV90 with the upgraded IR package

What I like about this possibility is the simplicity in logistics with it, more common spares across more trades. Probably give the VEH-techs a bit of a break. Not to mention that it is a mean looking vehicle!!

I believe it has command, recovery and medical versions as well. Not to mention the gun can be changed for different anti-tank capabilities (30mm, 40mm, 105mm, 120mm).

The only bad thing I have noticed about it vs. the Puma is the engine of the CV90 does half the distance and half the power of the Puma but the same speed (Puma weighs a lot more though). Also, the CV90 needs exterior armour kits and it's IED capabilities are currently being tested.

 

[aesop081]

It just seems like a crime against nature to buy these for Infantry soldiers while, the Armoured soldiers are using Coyotes.

You just dont know when to be quiet do you ?

Also, why do Infantry soldiers drive IFV's in the CF where all over the world IFV's are driven by Armoured soldiers everywhere else?

Wrong.

You are not only outside your lane but should have your permit revoked.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

It just seems like a crime against nature to buy these for Infantry soldiers while, the Armoured soldiers are using Coyotes.

Also, why do Infantry soldiers drive IFV's in the CF where all over the world IFV's are driven by Armoured soldiers everywhere else?

Guess by the same token you would ask why are all other trades driving all the trucks instead of the MSE Ops......



Anyways I would suggest you go on listen-silence as you are definetly well outside your lane with no hope of an Echo C/S support.....