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Close Air Support in the CF: Bring back something like the CF-5 or introduce something with props?

Hey

I'm going to weigh in here real quick, I think that maybe theres a misconception that the feeds from the pod go to a satellite and then down to the Receiver............not true.........works off of sometimes a pre-set freq or in a lot of the a/c the pilot can "switch" freqs as well as go Analog or Digital...............Maybe I'm just reading the posts wrong and if I am then kindly disregard.
I believe some of the other stuff you may be talking is Link 16 and SADL

T2B, don't forget about the newest kid on the block bringing it, Mr. Reaper (MQ-9)

Have a great day.
 
All sorts of frames out there doing the business. 

Spitty,

I am not a tech guy, but rather a guy who has relied on some of these things on the ground or as a planner.  How your feed works is not a big deal to me, although I imagine that it is a big deal to those who design things.  As long as a platoon commander in his LAV or on foot could see what the aircraft is seeing real-time (to include positional data etc) then I will leave the details of how up to you.  ;D  I have worked with one system regarding live feed and they were a bit clunky in the field.  For the feed from plane to ground I doubt that you would use satelitte due to the niche that this AC would fill. 

A TUAV that could take off from a rough strip, carry a couple of Hellfire and perhaps a cannon to go with a current generation FLIR combined with real-time video feed to tactical ground commanders would be a neat thing.  I doubt, however, that it would end up being cheap although it might fall into a good price range based on capabilities.  Nothing is cheap except my opinion!


 
Expectations that UAVs are cheaper than manned platforms are about as realistic as thinking that computers have saved us from excessive paperwork.  ;D
 
Turns out they don't even get rid of pilots either.  ;)

To be fair, it is me that is trying to turn Spitty towards a UAV for his idea.  I am not doing that on a money basis, but rather on risk.
 
Good2Golf said:
Expectations that UAVs are cheaper than manned platforms are about as realistic as thinking that computers have saved us from excessive paperwork.  ;D


Uh yes, the promise of the paperless office. I laugh at that idea on a regular basis.  ;D
 
Jimmy4Now said:
Size does not have anything to do with RCS (Radar Cross Section) of an object, which is not the same as its OCS (Optical Cross Section) where size is directly related.  Its all about angles.  A good example of OCS vice RCS is the decoy that was once used on the B-52, the "Quail".  The RCS of the Quail was larger than that of the B-52.  (All of this can be found using Google, I checked for open-source info before posting.)

Bearing in mind OPSEC, the rest of the equation is not something likely to be discussed here.

Never thought of ideas like that. Good point though, cause that's like the whole idea behind "stealth" aircraft, is trying to reduce the RCS. Now, as was mentioned in another post, how would the HEAT signature of a biplane compare to a more modern jet? I know some jets have specific designs to reduce heat signatures, but maybe somethng like an A10 or an Apache, I would think they would have very large heat signatures compared to a biplane. Those turbines do after all put out alot of heat.

Thanks for the info people, keep it coming. Learning alot!!
 
Piston power would have significantly lower thermal signatures than turbines.  An IR-guided missile would have a much harder time tracking the biplane.  More advanced imaging IR missiles would have a higher probability of success, but still, they're made for taking jet-powered aircraft out.

G2G.
 
Tango2Bravo said:
Turns out they don't even get rid of pilots either.  ;)

To be fair, it is me that is trying to turn Spitty towards a UAV for his idea.  I am not doing that on a money basis, but rather on risk.

Yeah. That and the possibility that I might run down to Radio Shack and start building one (and have some clue what I'm doing -- I don't fly). I think the guy who runs this trailer park might be a tad upset if I start welding together a 25' airframe with 33' wings.

Decent cameras might be hard to get. The civilian GIS market might have some useful gear though, and prices are coming down quite a bit.
 
Tango2Bravo said:
I'm not sure if we gain anything by aquiring a "cheap" manned aircraft to drop bombs instead of or augmenting the CF-18.  We have the CF-18.  I doubt very much that a plane will remain cheap once it is upgraded to employ the kinds of weapons we need with the required precision in both day and night.  That "cheap" airplane is still going to require support personnel.  It is not going to be cheap for very long.

To me the key capability is operating from unimproved airfields, FARPs and sections of road. To physically do this requires a smaller and lighter aircraft than a CF-18 or F-35. This does not imply "cheap", although such aircraft are usually less expensive than the large front line fighters.

Jet trainers like the BAE Hawk, lightweight fighters like the Gripon, Scaled Composite ARES, the Harrier "Jump Jet" or the MiG 29 have most of the attributes that I would consider important for this class of aircraft.

WRT the historical ground attack aircraft, airplanes like the Skyraider were far better for dedicated CAS than jet aircraft like the F-100 or F-105, and one possible role for a turboprop ground attack aircraft would be to escort helicopters and V-22 tilt rotor transports (the Douglas Sky Shark was designed to do 500 mph with a very impressive weapons load). Large UAV's can also take this role, although there are still issues of latency and situational awareness compared to a manned aircraft.
 
Thucydides said:
To me the key capability is operating from unimproved airfields, FARPs and sections of road. To physically do this requires a smaller and lighter aircraft than a CF-18 or F-35. This does not imply "cheap", although such aircraft are usually less expensive than the large front line fighters.

Although larger than the Harrier, the STOVL version of the F-35 has the capability to fill these requirements.

Jet trainers like the BAE Hawk, lightweight fighters like the Gripon, Scaled Composite ARES, the Harrier "Jump Jet" or the MiG 29 have most of the attributes that I would consider important for this class of aircraft.

Just as a point of note, its "Gripen"

WRT the historical ground attack aircraft, airplanes like the Skyraider were far better for dedicated CAS than jet aircraft like the F-100 or F-105,

They are well suited until they are faced with a decent AD system.
 
Thucydides said:
To me the key capability is operating from unimproved airfields, FARPs and sections of road.
but, is this really the key capability?  If one concludes that the average company FOB requires built-in CAS, then maybe.  However, I think the real desire to to see CAS which is faster to respond (arrive) when the fight starts.  There seems to be a lot of support for the idea that the aircraft should be able to fly very slow (or even hover) for engaging the enemy (including gun runs).

The A-10 seems to be the referenced paragon for this capability.  So it seems we want something that provides the firepower & survivability of the A-10.  However, we want a faster top speed so that it gets to the fight quicker.  We also want a slower minimum speed so there is more time to do damage before the target is overflown.  We probably want a longer loiter time so that more are available in the sky when we need them.  The wings of this aircraft will have to provide significantly more lift than those of the A-10 in order to allow the same capability to fly at slower speeds while including the additional weight of more powerful engines and additional fuel.  Oh, yeah ... we want this to hover too, right?

 
Thucydides said:
To me the key capability is operating from unimproved airfields, FARPs and sections of road.

I would argue that the key capabilities are:

    1.  speed of response (timlieness)

    2.  ability to deliver effects despite enemy, weather and time of day

    3.  those effects must be devastating to the enemy

    4.  those effects must be precise

Flying from a rough strip might achieve those things, but it might not.  As a ground guy I care about the effect on the ground.  The effect could come from North Bay for all I care, as long as it arrives where I want it within about 15 minutes of asking.  ;D



 
Quick question: Didn't the CF already order UAVs? When are they coming?

Do we need a new topic for this?

I've done some homework on the video and found a number of camera options, including a dual-head camera which auto-mixes an IR (sees at night, through dust, smoke, fog etc) and CCD (good to 0.1 lux, sees b&w in moonlight, colour in daylight) based on lighting conditions. It has a head that swivels up and down 80 degrees. Dunno how hard that would be to hook up to the remote controller for looking down or ahead as needed. The camera alone is $10,000. Don't f'n lose it.  So far this is my favourite option.

CCD only cameras are much cheaper and some are lighter.

These are not wireless network (802.11) based but rather based on existing wireless CCTV security systems. There are battery powered wireless hand-held receivers available. Standard TV resolution, no video recorder. I don't know if you would have the ability to receive and record video in a vehicle on a bigger screen.

The wireless video range is 100 yards or so, but the controller is good for up to a mile. I don't think an airplane is suitable, so I've been looking for remote controlled helicopters capable of lifting 20lbs. Ones with two contra-rotating main rotors instead of a tail rotor look like they would be easier to fly but would need more custom work. Apparently a regular model with a tail rotor has a steeper learning curve.

The engine options are electric or gas powered. I am tending towards the electric because it is very quiet. You get more power and in-the-air time with gas but it's as stealthy as your average lawn mower.  The downside of electric is short flight time (15 minutes or so, just long enough to pop it up and look around from 100 yards up) and the need to keep spare batteries and the ability to charge them. This would require (at least) access to a 12v cigarette lighter in a running vehicle. A gas engine would still need a battery for the camera.

I've also looked at a couple of different controllers. I don't know much about hiding or masking radio signals, but it seems to me that you don't want the guy holding the controller to be broadcasting his exact location to anyone with the gear to pick it up. Some of these controllers and wireless video transmitters use spread spectrum in the 2.4Ghz range. I'd like to hear from someone more knowledgeable that a) this would not make the operator an easy target or b) you guys have your own transmitters /  receivers / wireless controllers which do not suffer the short distance / lit-up-like-a-radio-christmas-tree limitations that off-the-shelf civilian components do.

I haven't done any research on weapons yet. You guys don't want my bi-plane, but someone asked for a cannon. Would a 9-pounder do? Brass or iron? You'd have to provide powder and shot yourselves it's too hard to obtain by mail-order.

The better controllers have as many as six buttons / channels that can be made to do different things. The easiest option might be to set up unattached 12-volt red and black wires so they become live when you push a button. Should work with the explosives and detonator of your choice to create a flying bomb. Pull the camera and you can put 5lbs of whatever you like in it.

I'd make this all as small and stowable as possible but it would be clunky, and include more parts than I would like -- controller, video receiver, helicopter, plus batteries and chargers for all three.

Clunky means difficult to smuggle. Assuming I could Fed-Ex this thing to Kandahar,  how many hours of latrine cleaning would be involved in getting caught loading unauthorized gear into a LAVIII? If I'm wasting my time then do let me know before I start hitting people up for money for parts.

Thucydides -- Thanks! Looks like one of my favourite planes from Microsoft's Crimson Skies game.
 
Yes, the Sperwer has been in Afghanistan since atleast 06, and I heard rumours we are getting / have the predator 1's.
 
Kilroy said:
Yes, the Sperwer has been in Afghanistan since atleast 06, and I heard rumours we are getting / have the predator 1's.


Speaking of lawn mower engines.  ;D
 
The reason I place the ability to operate from FARPs and unimproved airfields is to reduce the ability of the enemy to deny us CAS support. Taking our current situation as an example, should KAF be closed for any reason, fixed wing air support will have to come from a very long way, reducing reaction time to intervene and loiter time once on station (people who have been there will know what I'm talking about).

With the smaller/lighter aircraft, it will be possible to disperse to reduce vulnerability as well as provide fast flexible response. We go from a potential single point of failure to a dispersed and flexible "mesh" configuration. There are certain disadvantages to this model as well, but overall, it increases the choices available for the commander and increases the number of possible options to use against the enemy.
 
At the same time, you will bloat the tail in order to do this.  More techs spread in more locations, more soldiers guarding little airfields, more CSS moving fuel, parts and ammunition.  Additionally, instead of several far reaching aircraft able to converge and aggregate their strength against a target, sub-units would now be dependent on only a handful of local short range support.  Support already comes from more places than just KAF, so I'm not certain FOB based CAS is a really good trade-off.
 
Thucydides said:
... airplanes like the Skyraider were far better for dedicated CAS than jet aircraft like the F-100 or F-105,...

- Remember, both the F-100 and the F-105 were developed to be nuclear capable.
 
Frankly I think the A10 is about the best CAS aircraft built so far, plus considering how old it is, the USAF has got their money worth several times over, despite their distaste for this type of aircraft. UAV will take over some of it's roles in the future, but I suspect that the need for manned CAS will be around for quite sometime. It would be a good investment to build new A10's with improvements in avionics, engines and with the improved wing design.

Meanwhile I still think Canada should use our turboprop trainer as platform for a Air Reserve squadron dedicated to CAS, mainly for training purposes.
 
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