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Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread

I seriously doubt that either the Russians or Chinese would actually start a shooting war but use threats and coercion on and for their proxies.

Essentially back to the chronic, low grade fever of the Cold War....a position I agree with.  Personally I think that this is China's preferred method of warfare, coupled with a patient economic policy and diplomacy.  Russia has historically been more of "bear" in a china shop but Putin comes from another side of the house.  I believe that he believes that the KGB and their "friendship" societies which allied Soviet interests to disaffected westerners were, and still are, a much more effective weapon than all of the money spent on tanks and missiles.  Curiously he is a "soft power" advocate - but one with a ruthless streak and a willingness to employ "other means".

PS.  The Islamists seem to be trying to play the same game, out of necessity ...... the question that is unanswered as far as I am concerned is:  are all three following common strategies independently or are the Islamists being coached?
 
The cold war is a good comparison, but I prefer the period of the late 1800s when the 'Great Game' was being played by the Europeans, Japanese and Americans around the world, especially in Africa.  I think that WW 1 was a miscalculated extension of the Boer War.  If Queen Victoria had reigned in 1914 she would have slapped some sense into her nephews.  My parents lost 4 uncles in that war, so a cloak and dagger, low level conflict at least offers the prospect of fewer casualties (I hope).
 
Kirkhill said:
Is that a true statement? 

If I recall, just off my head, China has about 600 nuclear weapons vs ~2200 for Russia. Russian has the SS-18 Missile with its 10 MIRV capability, and its TOPOL with its ninja moves that avoid anti missile missiles. China has  operational ICBMs, which are not MIRV. The Russian missiles also have a CEP of about 250 yards, vs 3500 yards for the Chinese Missiles. So the Russians can put a Nuke right on top of China's silo, but not vice versa.
Russia also has the Supersonic heavy bomber Tu-160 blackjack to deliver these weapons, China has some fighters, but no supersonic strategic bombers.




http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/index.html is a rough overview of it, but I'm kind of a nerd for this stuff and Like to read up on it. So alot of it is from memory.

EDIT: better numbers: China has 128 ICBM's and 12 SLBMs. They are non MIRV, so its 128+12 in their amount of deliverable Missiles, as their bomber fleet is somewhat (very) lame.

Russia can deliver1748 warheads by ICBM.
609 can be delivered from SSBN's
and bombers to carry and deliver 884 Air fired Cruise Missiles.

 
rz350, I think what I was more questioning was not so much the numbers as whether or not the rockets will ignite when the button is pushed, fly where they are intended and detonate on command.  I have a fairly jaundiced view of Russian technical capabilities having seen how they treat their fishing vessels in comparison to the Americans and Norwegians.  Frankly I don't have a much better opinion of the Chinese and their knock-offs but somebody obviously does because they keep selling them on the international market.

and WOG:  You're right.  The Great Game is a better analogy.
 
Both the numbers I gave above are estimates of WORKING and capable numbers. Russian Forces suffered a lot in the mid nineties, however, the Nuclear forces where maint to a high standard, as its their main capability to keep China/NATO/USA/the various -istans/whoever out of their nation.

And since Putin took office, Russian forces are getting alot more funding.

As far as my Google research tells me, Russian Nuclear power is FAR superior to Chinese Nuclear power, its only at all competed with by the USA, this may be because everyone else keeps just a deterrent, but Russia and USA seem to have offensive Nuclear capabilities, as opposed to just reactionary.
 
Thanks rz350.  I'll take your point as read.

Regardless, I still think it would be a mug's game for either one of them to go nuclear - and they know it.
 
I think it would be a dumb thing to do too, but I can see Russia doing it, if they believe they can not hold them back with ground forces, as they would then have nothing to loose.
 
Under the old ABM treaty between the USA and Soviets they were only permitted ABMs around their capitols.  Of course, the US has long abrogated the treaty and is placing them in Alaska, the UK and other places.  What is the state of Russian ABMs?  I don't like to reference Tom Clancy, but in The Cardinal of the Kremlin the Americans have difficulty with producing enough energy, whereas Russia has difficulty with accuracy.

We know that the Russian population is imploding, but soon the Chinese will have the social problem of 30 million unmarried men roaming around.  Russians still win a good proportion of Nobel prizes and crank outengineers from their technical schools (Chernobyl notwithstanding).  China only produces the same number of technical grads as France or the UK, despite the 20 times difference in population.

Russia retains a formidable nuclear underwater fleet and recently launched a new class of submarine, on a par with western platforms.  The end of the cold war enabled Russia to rationalize its weapons and scrap older systems on land, sea and air.  We used to joke about their fighters being built from steel with tube radios, then realized they could survive the electromagnetic pulse of a nuclear strike.  The Americans spent a million dollars to develope a pen that would write in zero gravity.  The Russions used mechanical pencils.

My bet is the Russians would sustain any strategic losses as they always have and massively retaliate against any aggressors.  As for conventional warfare, it's a long approach march to Novosibirsk or Omsk.
 
Don't forget that little test the Chinese did last winter....something about blowing a satellite out of orbit. They are also developing their own GPS system, with one in place at present.

One more set of options.
 
Putin is making some interesting changes and consolidations in Russia.   An
article from Stratfor suggests a resurgence in Russian strength.

Geopolitical Diary: Restructuring the Russian Military?
11 May 2007
www.stratfor.com

Rumors about the dismissal of Russian air force commander Gen. Vladimir Mikhailov began circulating late Thursday after Interfax news service reported the general had been fired, citing unnamed Defense Ministry sources.

Russian President Vladimir Putin has worked hard during the last two years to consolidate his economic, financial, political and social power, but he has yet to reign in the military, the leaders of which have historically enjoyed much political power. Neither the air force nor the Kremlin has confirmed Mikhailov's dismissal; however, if the general was indeed sacked, the move could mark the beginning of Putin's military restructuring.

The ability to fire a senior military commander belongs to the president alone. Since the fall of the Soviet Union, no Russian leader has made significant changes in the military that were not designed to appease the powerful generals. Putin changed this in 2001 by naming the first civilian to hold the post of defense minister. The appointment of Sergei Ivanov, a former KGB officer and personal friend to the president, was meant to keep the generals under Putin's thumb by promoting someone they fear until Putin could consolidate the last piece of the Russian system and gain total control.

Mikhailov has served in the military since 1975 and has held top positions throughout the air force. He commands respect in both Russian and international circles. The general, who is 63, has been set to retire on three occasions due to age restrictions, but his term has been extended repeatedly. It would not be strange for a man of his age to retire at this point. However, the Interfax report said he was "dismissed," which likely means he was fired.

The timing of his dismissal is particularly strange considering the state of Putin's ongoing consolidation. In his April 26 state of the union address, Putin laid out his vision for a new, stronger Russia. Though he has been working toward this since he took office in 2000, he has moved rapidly during the past two years to increase his party's power, securing Russia's energy wealth, cracking down on dissident movements and purging members of the government's opposition. Putin also has begun advocating a new common identity for Russians, as evidenced in his May 9 Victory Day speech.

The largest force Putin has had to keep in check are the generals, many of whom have plagued the military by holding it back from modernization, opposing reforms and using up massive amounts of money. Under former President Boris Yeltsin, generals were appointed by the handful. The Russian military had been demoralized by the war in Chechnya, and Yeltsin was facing an opposition backlash. To appease the middle and top ranks, Yeltsin handed out titles like food rations. Putin has had to deal with the glut of generals created by his predecessor -- the main problem being that the generals can also enter the government and cause problems for him there.

Putin recognized the generals' popularity and influence within the country, as well as their history of aiding revolutions. Much to the horror of the military, he appointed Ivanov as defense minister. The generals hated that a former KGB (now FSB) officer had taken the top office. It was unheard of to place a member of the siloviki -- Russia's old intelligence establishment -- at the head of the military. However, the intelligence establishment was the only other institution that held as much power as the military. Fearing Ivanov, the generals did not move against Putin while he turned his attention to other things.

Now that Putin has consolidated all the major Russian sectors, the military is all that is left. Putin has said he would like to revamp the decaying military, but reigning in the generals could be his trickiest and most dangerous task. Though during the Soviet era Russia posed a serious threat to the United States, today's Russian military is a mere shadow of what it once was. Russia ranks third in the world behind the United States and China in military spending; however, it is estimated that nearly half of this spending is unaccounted for. If Russia is serious about revamping its military -- which is imperative if it wants to reclaim its status as a world power -- it will have to trim the fat.

Putin's Feb. 16 move to replace Ivanov with Anatoly Serdyukov, who is also a civilian and is more accustomed to heading up Russia's tax department than dictating military strategy, might have been his first step toward restructuring this dilapidated institution. Serdyukov has said he plans to purge all wastefulness from the military, and Russian tabloid Moskovsky Komsomolets reported in April that Mikhailov was being investigated for misuse of funds. If this is the real reason behind Mikhailov's departure, Russia has a long road of purges ahead of it. However, if the Kremlin is successful in ridding the military of superfluous personnel and freeing up some of those funds, Russia could be on its way to seriously overhauling its military and reasserting itself in ways the West thought would never again be possible.

Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act - http://www.cb-cda.gc.ca/info/act-e.html#rid-33409

 
Is one thing related to the other?
According to the Daily Mail this incident happened during a NATO exercise in the North Atlantic sometime between April 22 and May 3.  Noteworthy because while this used to be common during the Cold War similar activity hasn't been seen since then.


RAF jets responded to Russian incursion
DUNDEE, Scotland, May. 9 (UPI) -- The Royal Air Force dispatched two jets from a Scottish base to intercept two Russian spy planes that were nearing British airspace, The Daily Mail reported.
The RAF would not specify when the aerial incident took place, but newspaper said Wednesday that officials confirmed there was no interaction between the two nations' aircraft.

The appearance of the Russian planes occurred just as the Royal Navy was conducting an exercise in international waters near Scotland.

RAF squadron leader Keith Wardlaw compared the incident to those that typically occurred during the Cold War.

"It's a throwback to the Cold War when they used to fly in regularly to poke and prod at the edges of British airspace and test our reaction times," he told the newspaper. "It's normal to let such aircraft know we're there by pulling up alongside them and they left quietly. The whole encounter probably lasted 15, 20 minutes."
http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Top_News/2007/05/09/raf_jets_responded_to_russian_incursion/

...Britain's air-defence radar system picks up a long-range Russian Bear bomber speeding towards the UK across the North Sea, apparently on a spying mission.

Within minutes, at a windswept RAF base, four airmen race to their fighter jets and roar away to intercept the intruder.

It is the type of incident which was routine two decades ago. But this took place last week.

Two Bears were spotted during a major Royal Navy exercise to the north of the Outer Hebrides. Commanders believe they were planning to spy on the warships, including the aircraft carrier Illustrious.

Two Tornado F3 fighters took off from RAF Leuchars in Fife and intercepted the Bears in international airspace.

The pilots were close enough to wave but there was no radio contact.

After shadowing the Russians for some 15 minutes, they watched as the giant bombers turned and headed home to their base in Murmansk. In similar skirmishes during the 1970s and 80s, Soviet spies were sometimes spotted watching from the perimeter of RAF stations to time exactly how long it took jets to take off and intercept Bear bombers, probing the UK's defences and testing the response.

Nato pilots in those days were well accustomed to an almost daily aerial game of cat-and-mouse.

While such visits from the Russians have become extremely rare, the latest one is a reminder that Moscow's long-term ambitions are not entirely clear and that the old Cold War rivalries could well resurface.

Under President-Putin - a former KGB general - Russia has been flexing its economic muscle by cutting off gas flows to the West, highlighting Europe's growing dependence on its energy.

The Kremlin has also begun to take a more aggressive stance in foreign affairs.

Paul Jackson, editor of Jane's All The World's Aircraft, said, "The exercise was in international waters and the Russians have got just as much right to be there as we have.

"The RAF are telling them, 'We could do this for real if we wanted to, so go and tell your mates.'"

The Russian Embassy in London declined to comment.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=453672&in_page_id=1770

It isn't that the Russians have done anything threatening.  It is just that they have done something different......followed by a dismissal.  Putin has got about another 10 months as President but aims to stay a Power Broker even if he isn't President.  (Putin Says He'll Retain Influence In Russia After Term Ends in '08....http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/25/AR2006102501079.html ).





 
Russia Inc.'s murky lineage hardly matters any more. The Russians aren't just coming any more. They're here.

Meet Russia's oligarchs: Some ruthless. Some exiled. All filthy rich 

Enter stage left: 39-year-old oligarch Oleg Deripaska, who this week bought a $1.54-billion (U.S.) piece of car parts giant Magna International Inc. and its dream of acquiring DaimlerChrysler's U.S. operations. Canadians got their first glimpse of Mr. Deripaska when Magna chairman Frank Stronach (Edit: Belinda's Dad) introduced the nuclear physicist turned automobiles-to-aluminum tycoon to North Americans at the company's annual meeting in Toronto on Thursday.

The deal makes a lot of sense for both men. Mr. Deripaska, whose empire includes Russia's No. 2 auto maker and UC Rusal, the world's leading aluminum producer, needs foreign technology to build his Russian auto-making company and diversify geographically. Mr. Stronach, 74, needs capital and a global strategy if he is to avoid Chrysler becoming a quagmire.

But the deal is equally important to Mr. Putin, who has made no secret of his desire to see his champion companies step confidently out on to the world stage.

The Magna investment is part of a multibillion-dollar buying binge by Russia Inc. in Canada, the United States and Europe. Russian companies have bought steel makers, alumina and platinum mines, construction companies and gas pipelines. OAO Lukoil operates more than 2,000 gas stations, from Maine to Virginia. And OAO Gazprom wants to invest in liquefied natural gas projects in Canada and the U.S. to help create export markets for trapped resources.

To some analysts, the increasing global reach of Russian companies is the next stage of the Cold War, fought with rhetoric and petro-dollars, instead of missiles. “This process has been going on since the mid-nineties,” explained Steven Rosefielde, professor of economics at the University of North Carolina and an expert on the Russian economy. “At that point, it was about capital flight. Now, with Putin pulling all strings behind the scenes, it has become an intriguing dimension of the second phase of the Cold War.”

Not unlike China, the economic objectives of the Russian state are never far from the global aspirations of its companies, and vice versa.

“There are definitely echoes of the Cold War,
” agreed Marshall Goldman, professor emeritus of Russian economics at Harvard University's Wellesley College in Boston. “Do we really trust these guys? Are they playing dirty?”

http://www.reportonbusiness.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070512.wxrcover-russia12/BNStory/Business/home

Putin's playing this cannier than the Chinese.  It is easier to write a law opposing investment by a foreign company when it is state owned (as in the case of China) than when it is privately owned by someone intimately tied to the government (as in the case of Russia ..... and Canada?). 

"The last capitalist we hang shall be the one who sold us the rope."
Karl Marx

Forget the religion - it is all about the proselytizer .... and his cronies.


And this one deserves reading as well

A new cold war
Peter Goodspeed, National Post
Published: Saturday, May 12, 2007

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=f0fe44e8-2285-46da-8432-a3a31794162a










 
Try figuring this one out.

As I read this one the Islamists of the MMA are complaining that the government is covertly supporting the Islamists of a madrassa that have kidnapped 5 Chinese civilians.  The MMA Islamists are complaining that the Government's actions/inactions are separating Pakistan from their friends the Chinese and the Iranians.

Put that together with Indians sending even a small contingent of troops into Afghanistan, the observations on Chaos, American moves in Iraq, activities in Gaza with Hamas and now the attacks on the UN in Lebanon and it looks to be an interesting summer.

Pak Govt providing covert support to radical clerics: Fazal 

Islamabad, June 24: Pakistan's Islamist Alliance MMA leader has flayed the government for tolerating the violent activities of the radical students of a madrassa involved in moral policing, alleging that the government was providing "covert support to Lal Masjid clerics to divert the people’s attention from real issues."

Opposition leader Maulana Fazl-ur-Rehman questioned the governments writ in the face of violent activities of the madrassa students a few miles from the Parliament (National Assembly) and the Presidency.

Criticising the government for failing to take action against the radical students of Jamia Hafsa madrassa and the clerics of Lal Masjid in central Islamabad involved in a stand off with the authorities for the enforcement of Sharia, the Maulana questioned its writ in the face of the kidnapping of Chinese nationals from a health club for "un-Islamic" acts.

"It’s a matter of grave concern and shame that we have once again failed to protect the people of our friend China. This could be an outcome of the government’s policies and its covert support to Lal Masjid clerics to divert people’s attention from real issues," Fazl said.

"We condemn obscenity but it should be stopped through good conduct, not by force," he was quoted as saying by the Daily Times.

The Islamic leader said no action was taken against the madrassa and local clerics when they had earlier kidnapped three women and a six-month-old child, and then took security forces hostage more than once.

Speaking in the National Assembly, the Maulana said Pakistan’s relations with Iran, ring countries were not cordial and this incident harmed its relations with China.

Bureau Report
http://www.zeenews.com/znnew/articles.asp?aid=378884&sid=SAS

 
The Chinese are very worried about the impact of rampant Islamism on the Uiger minority which is centred in the North-West in Xinjiang province.

One of the primary goals of the Shanghai Cooperation Council (discussed elsewhere in Army.ca) is to bring the Muslim Central Asia republics, Kirgyzstan, Tajikistan, Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan, much more firmly into Beijing's sphere - allowing, inter alia, Beijing to keep much closer track of the goings on inside those countries.  That's, in part, why a Canadian (dual citizenship) was arrested in one of the 'stans' and shipped to China where he was tried and sentenced to life in prison without the Chinese ever once acknowledging that he is a Canadian citizen.  In their eyes he is an Uiger separatist and the normal punishment for separatism is a bullet in the back of the head - after a summary trial.

It's not Canada; separatists are not tolerated.  Islam is tolerated just as Christianity is: as something akin to a quaint folkway, so long as it is a loyal, Chinese version of Islam.
 
Kirkhill,

This is indeed a surprising decision on the part of the Pakistani government to not crack down on such an overt anti-Chinese act.  The Chinese government has demonstrated that it is, as opposition leader Fazl-ur-Rehman says, "our friend China".  It will continue to be Pakistan's friend for two very different but compelling reasons, both of which are of great benefit to China.

First is the ever popular 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' theory of political alliance.  India is one of only two nuclear powers on China's borders and the only one with whom there are ongoing border disputes.  Nepal and Bhutan are the pawns in this game (witness the Chinese backed Nepalese guerrillas operating for the past 20 years) for the domination of the Himalayan region.  China is not unhappy with the current political tensions between India and Pakistan.

The second reason, which is much less known, is that yes Virginia there are Chinese Muslims.  Most estimate at least 20 million (2% of the total Chinese population) although some would claim a figure as high as 100 million (or 10%).  China of course will not give an official figure.  A small population of ethnically Chinese Muslims known as Uighur (pronounced wee-gar and there are many different spellings) live in western China.  Some of the inmates in Guantanamo are Uighur.  They were captured by the US after fighting the good fight in Afghanistan.  So, killing two birds with one stone and not wanting another situation similar to Tibet on its hands, there is no better foreign policy for China in order to reach a rapprochement with its Muslim population than to be seen to be politically supporting Pakistan.

This means that of the three major powers only China, over the US and Russia, has a pro-Muslim foreign policy.  In the Middle East and South West Asia the ramifications are pretty well obvious.  I believe you've written about this very situation in earlier threads.  If you have I apologize for rehashing old topics.

So Fazl-ur-Rehman is correct in asking the government of Pakistan to control any overt anti-Chinese actions from disturbing the status quo.  There is way too much at stake for whatever perceived contravention of Sharia Law these Chinese nationals my have committed.

Dan.
 
Interesting discussion, thought I might throw in some copy and paste (plus some minor addition or subtractions for relevance’s sake) from an essay I wrote for a politics of China class.

“The geopolitical challenge of every major Asian nation, including China, is not so much how to conquer neighbours as how to prevent these neighbours from combining against it.”

The view espoused by Kissinger is particularly relevant to the Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region. Out of the 16.6 million people living in the Xinjiang region, 7 million are Uighurs (ethnic Turks and Muslims). The region shares a border with Kazakhstan, which is comprised of a Muslim majority. Problematic as, “fundamentalist influence in the 1990’s has thus brought an element of instability to Xinjiang, and radical Islamists have become a political force opposed to society and government.”   

I recall reading of quite a few incidents of terrorism perpetrated by separatists in the Uighur region. Though they’re not well publicized, as the Chinese government doesn’t want anyone seeing that it’s house isn’t in order.



 
Is it just "Islamism" the Chinese are worried about? Or is it "separatism" generally?

I regret that this article seems to be most commonly saved on some rather spurious sites with agendas that I don't favour but the article itself is sound.  Victor Mair is well known and accepted in his field.

The reason I am citing it is to demonstrate how seriously China takes potential challenges to its claims to local hegemony.  It has sat on this archaeology story for a number of years because it seems to suggest that, at very least, tall blondes and redheads ended up in Xinjiang before the "Chinese", the Han,  made it up out of the coastal lands and river valleys, across the mountains and the Gobi to the Altai and the Steppes.  They have similar problems with the Tibetans (of course), Hong Kong and (in their view) Taiwan.

Note: I am not claiming that China should be a Swedish protectorate  ;).  It seems, though, that the Uighur and the rest of the Horse Peoples of the Steppes can lay claim to very diverse origins that legitimately separate them from the Han.  That would be a major political and propaganda problem if the Han were trying to establish fraternal links with the Steppes to gain access to their oil and gas. Not to mention establishing a historical claim to the land itself.


Genetic testing reveals awkward truth about Xinjiang's famous mummies

ROBERT J. SAIGET of Agence France-Prese in Urumqi Tuesday, April 19, 2005

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After years of controversy and political intrigue, archaeologists using genetic testing have proven that Caucasians roamed China's Tarim Basin 1,000 years before East Asian people arrived.
The research, which the Chinese government has appeared to have delayed making public out of concerns of fuelling Uighur Muslim separatism in its western-most Xinjiang region, is based on a cache of ancient dried-out corpses that have been found around the Tarim Basin in recent decades.


"It is unfortunate that the issue has been so politicised because it has created a lot of difficulties," Victor Mair, a specialist in the ancient corpses and co-author of "Mummies of the Tarim Basin", said.

"It would be better for everyone to approach this from a purely scientific and historical perspective."

The discoveries in the 1980s of the undisturbed 4,000-year-old "Beauty of Loulan" and the younger 3,000-year-old body of the "Charchan Man" are legendary in world archaeological circles for the fine state of their preservation and for the wealth of knowledge they bring to modern research.

In historic and scientific circles the discoveries along the ancient Silk Road were on a par with finding the Egyptian mummies.

But China's concern over its rule in restive Xinjiang has widely been perceived as impeding faster research into them and greater publicity of the findings.

The desiccated corpses, which avoided natural decomposition due to the dry atmosphere and alkaline soils in the Tarim Basin, have not only given scientists a look into their physical biologies, but their clothes, tools and burial rituals have given historians a glimpse into life in the Bronze Age.

Mr Mair, who played a pivotal role in bringing the discoveries to Western scholars in the 1990s, has worked tirelessly to get Chinese approval to take samples out of China for definitive genetic testing.

One expedition in recent years succeeded in collecting 52 samples with the aide of Chinese researchers, but later Mr Mair's hosts had a change of heart and only let five of them out of the country.

"I spent six months in Sweden last year doing nothing but genetic research," Mr Mair said from his home in the United States where he teaches at the University of Pennsylvania.

"My research has shown that in the second millennium BC, the oldest mummies, like the Loulan Beauty, were the earliest settlers in the Tarim Basin.

"From the evidence available, we have found that during the first 1,000 years after the Loulan Beauty, the only settlers in the Tarim Basin were Caucasoid."

East Asian peoples only began showing up in the eastern portions of the Tarim Basin about 3,000 years ago, Mr Mair said, while the Uighur peoples arrived after the collapse of the Orkon Uighur Kingdom, largely based in modern day Mongolia, around the year 842.

"Modern DNA and ancient DNA show that Uighurs, Kazaks, Krygyzs, the peoples of Central Asia are all mixed Caucasian and East Asian. The modern and ancient DNA tell the same story," he said.

Mr Mair hopes to publish his new findings in the coming months.

China has only allowed the genetic studies in the last few years, with a 2004 study carried out by Jilin University also finding that the mummies' DNA had Europoid genes, further proving that the earliest settlers of Western China were not East Asians.

In the preface to the 2002 book, "Ancient Corpses of Xinjiang," written by Chinese archaeologist Wang Huabing, the Chinese historian and Sanskrit specialist Ji Xianlin soundly denounced the use of the mummies by Uighur separatists as proof that Xinjiang should not belong to China.

"What has stirred up the most excitement in academic circles, both in the East and the West, is the fact that the ancient corpses of 'white [Caucasoid/Europid] people' have been excavated," Jin wrote.

"However, within China a small group of ethnic separatists have taken advantage of this opportunity to stir up trouble and are acting like buffoons, [styling] themselves the descendants of these ancient 'white people' with the aim of dividing the motherland."

Further on, in an apparent swipe at the government's lack of eagerness to acknowledge the science and publicise it to the world, Ji wrote that "a scientist may not distort facts for political reasons, religious reasons, or any other reason".

Meanwhile, Yingpan Man, a nearly perfectly preserved 2,000-year-old Caucasoid mummy, was only this month allowed to leave China for the first time, and is being displayed at the Tokyo Edo Museum.

The Yingpan Man, discovered in 1995 in the region that bears his name, has been seen as the best preserved of all the undisturbed mummies that have so far been found.

Yingpan Man not only had a gold foil death mask - a Greek tradition - covering his blonde bearded face, but also wore elaborate golden embroidered red and maroon garments with seemingly Western European designs.

His nearly 2.00 metre long body is the tallest of all the mummies found so far and the clothes and artifacts discovered in the surrounding tombs suggest the highest level of Caucasoid civilization in the ancient Tarim Basin region.

When the Yingpan Man returns from Tokyo to Urumqi where he has long been kept out of public eye, he is expected to be finally put on display when the new Xinjiang Museum opens this year.

China has hundreds of the mummies in various degrees of dessication and decomposition, including the prominent Han Chinese warrior Zhang Xiong and other Uighur mummies.

However, only a dozen or so are on permanent display in a makeshift building until the new museum is completed.

http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/69-19170.aspx


And FifthHorse - here is a reference to they Uighur bombings in 1996 and the Chinese response. http://mondediplo.com/1997/09/uighur

And of course it plays to the Shanghai Cooperation Organization of China, Russia, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan and Tajikistan and the establishment and maintenance of a common front.  http://www.sectsco.org/html/00026.html
 
We've known about the mummies at Urumqchi for year and years.  In fact Elizabeth Barber, a well respected textiles expert, says (The Mummies of Urumchi, New York, 1999) that the people used ancient Celtic techniques.  I tell my good lady that it was the Scots who brought civilization to China about 4,000 years ago!
 
I'm glad you said that Edward.    ;) 
As the "Professional Scot" on the site I didn't dare try to get away with it.  Slainte mha.
 
Guys,

OK, I apologize.  Every time I think I'm adding something new and previously unheard to the discussions on the 'International' thread I always find that whatever I've brought forward is already old news to the enlightened.  It's getting to be embarrassing for me as I've always fancied myself as being somewhat well read.  I'd only heard of the Uighur about 5 years ago and the idea of Chinese Muslims was a complete surprise to me.  Exposing their existence was my one and only trump card on this thread.  I can't believe people have become as familiar with the Uighur as they have with Celts in China!

I think I'll just keep myself entertained by reading these excellent threads, being jealous of the skills displayed and staying the heck off.

Humility is hard lesson to learn for an A type personality.

Dan.
 
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