CF Hair Regulations - superthread [MERGED]

[AbdullahD]

Now this is interesting, as a Muslim it is obligatory for me to have a beard and yet the exception is only made for Sikhs. I am referring to page 2-2-2/3 of the canadian forces dress regulations.

I just assumed it was allowed to have a beard for religous reasons, I will now have to check in on this. Just wanted to post my suprise here.

Abdullah

p.s i figured i didnt need to link to the booklet

 

[dimsum]

Now this is interesting, as a Muslim it is obligatory for me to have a beard and yet the exception is only made for Sikhs. I am referring to page 2-2-2/3 of the canadian forces dress regulations.

I just assumed it was allowed to have a beard for religous reasons, I will now have to check in on this. Just wanted to post my suprise here.

Abdullah

p.s i figured i didnt need to link to the booklet

It's been noted in this thread and others, but the exemption doesn't apply if it affects safety (gas mask, firefighting equipment, aircrew oxygen, etc.) 

 

[Loachman]

I've known Muslim men who've worn beards, and Muslim women who've worn hijabs, while serving.

 

[armyvern]

Now this is interesting, as a Muslim it is obligatory for me to have a beard and yet the exception is only made for Sikhs. I am referring to page 2-2-2/3 of the canadian forces dress regulations.

I just assumed it was allowed to have a beard for religous reasons, I will now have to check in on this. Just wanted to post my suprise here.

Abdullah

p.s i figured i didnt need to link to the booklet

Have you attempted to just submit a memo outling your request and reason for wear - Religious requirements?

Just curious.  Perhaps the dress regs are not covering this item for Muslims because, as far as I am aware, not all Muslims are required to wear beards unlike Sikhs who are all required to do so?

Vern

 

[AbdullahD]

It's been noted in this thread and others, but the exemption doesn't apply if it affects safety (gas mask, firefighting equipment, aircrew oxygen, etc.)

Thanks for the quick reply, but i think you misunderstood me. ill try to clarify.

As a Muslim it is obligatory for me to keep a beard,  the only exception being for health or to save my life. Now the general exception exists for Sikhs, but I cant see the same for other religious groups.

So am I missing the information in the dress manual, or are only sikhs excluded from the rule. I hope that is better.

I have not submitted a request yet, I'm just fact checking. It is required for all Muslim men to have beards no exception aside from those noted.

Abdulla4

 

[Remius]

Now this is interesting, as a Muslim it is obligatory for me to have a beard and yet the exception is only made for Sikhs. I am referring to page 2-2-2/3 of the canadian forces dress regulations.

I just assumed it was allowed to have a beard for religous reasons, I will now have to check in on this. Just wanted to post my suprise here.

Abdullah

p.s i figured i didnt need to link to the booklet

Abdullah, are you sure that the muslim faith makes beards mandatory?  I say this because there is a lot of contradictory information out there.  The Quran does not state it but apparently Mohammed encouraged it.  Historically to differentiate one from a pagan or a women, and because Mohammed said so. 

There is a difference between mandatory and strongly encouraged. 

We ran into a few cases and we just referred the issue to the CAF Padre office to ensure we were in compliance with reasonable accomodation.  This is why there is likely no provision within the CAF whereas for Sikhs it is a religious requirement.

Article here on the subject.  http://www.bbc.com/news/10369726

Like for Catholics and eating fish on fridays.  Encouraged but not obligatory.  Just depends on how personally devout you want to be.

 

[AbdullahD]

Abdullah, are you sure that the muslim faith makes beards mandatory?  I say this because there is a lot of contradictory information out there.  The Quran does not state it but apparently Mohammed encouraged it.  Historically to differentiate one from a pagan or a women, and because Mohammed said so. 

There is a difference between mandatory and strongly encouraged. 

We ran into a few cases and we just referred the issue to the CAF Padre office to ensure we were in compliance with reasonable accomodation.  This is why there is likely no provision within the CAF whereas for Sikhs it is a religious requirement.

Article here on the subject.  http://www.bbc.com/news/10369726

Like for Catholics and eating fish on fridays.  Encouraged but not obligatory.  Just depends on how personally devout you want to be.

I am 110% sure, no if and or buts. period.

If you need proof, ill post many fatwas after juma.

Abdullah

 

[armyvern]

I am 110% sure, no if and or buts. period.

If you need proof, ill post many fatwas after juma.

Abdullah

I'm curious as to whether or not the Quran actually addresses the issue.

I understand that Muslim leaders issue Fatwas, just as the Pope makes statements (Bible is the rule of law for Christians - even then, some more strictly than others), but you've really got me curious now as I have 2 male Muslim friends and both do their prayers, but neither sports a beard (and not due to the reasons you gave earlier either). 

 

[Remius]

I'm curious as to whether or not the Quran actually addresses the issue.

I understand that Muslim leaders issue Fatwas, just as the Pope makes statements (Bible is the rule of law for Christians - even then, some more strictly than others), but you've really got me curious now as I have 2 male Muslim friends and both do their prayers, but neither sports a beard (and not due to the reasons you gave earlier either).

Vern, we had a similar issue and a request for accomodation was sent up and in that particular case growing a beard was not deemed mandatory (it may have been a sect thing or what not).  I suspect it is a case by case basis because of the the varying contradictions from scholars and religious leaders.  Which likely explains why the dress manual does not permissively set a rule for Muslims. 

 

[Nfld Sapper]

From my understanding and from talking to my neighbours who are Muslim,

The Prophet Muhammad had a beard and he ordered the Muslims of the time to grow one too. Back then it was important for Muslims to look different than the Pagans for their security and the beard served as an identification element of a Muslim.

Also, the beard served as a new tradition that helped the newly-converted Muslims give up on the Pagan traditions they grew up with.

Muslims of today grow a beard by choice because it was a Sunnah (tradition) of every one of Gods prophets and messengers that was sent. From Adam, Noah, Lot, Abraham, Islamil, Isreal, David, Moses, Jesus, Muahmmad etc. In doing so they are emulating the best of mankind and those who were the most obedient to God all mighty.

Further more growing a beard earns Muslims a steady residual supply of good deeds, in particular when they are following the tradition of the final Prophet Muhammad  as a sign of faithfulness.

However, it is not mandatory for Muslim men to grow a beard and failure to grow one is not a sin of sorts.

I am 110% sure, no if and or buts. period.

If you need proof, ill post many fatwas after juma.

Abdullah

I would like to hear your take on this Is the beard fard or just a Sunnah?

 

[Nfld Sapper]

A point of order, let's not degrade this thread to the point that most of it has to be binned... :nod:

MILNET.CA MENTOR

 

[AbdullahD]

Beards

http://www.askimam.org/public/question_detail/18364

https://islamqa.info/en/6657

http://www.tafseer-raheemi.com/q-is-it-permissible-to-trim-the-beard/

http://www.muftisays.com/blog/Seifeddine-M/1619_30-05-2011/1)-the-beard-.-sunnah-or-wajib%3F.html

I think these four website are sufficient to establish a beard is mandatory. The length of beard does have some iktilaf between the ulema (to my knowledge), so that is a separate issue.

Now regarding if it is mandatory or just strongly encouraged. it is Wajib, which means it is a commandment from God tbrough our prophet. 

A few of the degrees of importance are in this link http://www.thekhalids.org/index.php/newsletter-archive/995-islamic-wisdom-fard-wajib-sunnah-makrooh-mustahab-mubah-haram

Now for not finding this issue in the Quran, that does not invalidate it. In the Quran you will find passages close to the meaning to follow the prophet and his sunnah (how he acted). So to do that we need evidences of what his Sunnah is and we use hadiths to find that out. If you can find a collection of sahih bukhari or sahih Muslim you will find many ahhadiths showing the beard is wajib.

We as layman should not issue rulings on what permitted or not. Ulema ikram must take all hadiths and the Quran into consideration when they issue a fatwa and must understand who he (the prophet) told it to and why and where and what those listening got from it and how he clarified etc etc etc. Something those of us with little knowledge can not do.

Now seeing from other replys, even if the armed forces does not generally allow Muslims to have beard... i can still apply for an exception. So ill go talk to the unit and apply for an exception if I have too. (im recovering from runners knee right now, so im a little behind the curve here)

Also guys, If a Muslim does not know a beard is wajib. the sin is much much less on him, so dont take this explanation and show your Muslim buddies and be like "grow a beard!". Islam demands wisdom and throwing fatawas at people who can not implement them is not wisdom, it is opression. Also as a last note this is the majority position, im sure some small sect or what have you says beards are not wajib but 90% of Ulema say it is obligatory.

Abdullah

p.s maybe for Islamic questions just pm me so we dont derail this thread.

 

[armyvern]

Beards

http://www.askimam.org/public/question_detail/18364

https://islamqa.info/en/6657

http://www.tafseer-raheemi.com/q-is-it-permissible-to-trim-the-beard/

http://www.muftisays.com/blog/Seifeddine-M/1619_30-05-2011/1)-the-beard-.-sunnah-or-wajib%3F.html

I think these four website are sufficient to establish a beard is mandatory. The length of beard does have some iktilaf between the ulema (to my knowledge), so that is a separate issue.

Now regarding if it is mandatory or just strongly encouraged. it is Wajib, which means it is a commandment from God tbrough our prophet. 

A few of the degrees of importance are in this link http://www.thekhalids.org/index.php/newsletter-archive/995-islamic-wisdom-fard-wajib-sunnah-makrooh-mustahab-mubah-haram

Now for not finding this issue in the Quran, that does not invalidate it. In the Quran you will find passages close to the meaning to follow the prophet and his sunnah (how he acted). So to do that we need evidences of what his Sunnah is and we use hadiths to find that out. If you can find a collection of sahih bukhari or sahih Muslim you will find many ahhadiths showing the beard is wajib.

We as layman should not issue rulings on what permitted or not. Ulema ikram must take all hadiths and the Quran into consideration when they issue a fatwa and must understand who he (the prophet) told it to and why and where and what those listening got from it and how he clarified etc etc etc. Something those of us with little knowledge can not do.

Now seeing from other replys, even if the armed forces does not generally allow Muslims to have beard... i can still apply for an exception. So ill go talk to the unit and apply for an exception if I have too. (im recovering from runners knee right now, so im a little behind the curve here)

Also guys, If a Muslim does not know a beard is wajib. the sin is much much less on him, so dont take this explanation and show your Muslim buddies and be like "grow a beard!". Islam demands wisdom and throwing fatawas at people who can not implement them is not wisdom, it is opression. Also as a last note this is the majority position, im sure some small sect or what have you says beards are not wajib but 90% of Ulema say it is obligatory.

Abdullah

p.s maybe for Islamic questions just pm me so we dont derail this thread.

Thank you!

 

[Loachman]

The first serving Sikh that I ever knew (mid-1970s) did not wear a beard or a turban (even before joining), but that would be personal choice and one presumes that some, as in all faiths, are more and less devout than others. Many military personnel from Muslim countries do not wear beards.

 

[Pusser]

I have known many Muslims from several different countries and many of them do not wear beards.  Some of them were very well educated and devout so I am not convinced that the wearing of a beard is a universal requirement of Islam. 

I have also known several Sikhs who have served in the military.  Only one of the ones I've known in the CF chose to wear a turban and then, it was only early on in his career.  Later on, he removed the turban and shaved.  So, I'm also not convinced that wearing a beard is an absolute requirement of the Sikh faith.  In fact, when the Metro Toronto Police approved the wearing of turbans back in the 80s, the Toronto Star ran an article where they consulted with both Sikh scholars and some Sikh officers then already serving on the Metro force.  The scholars said it was not an absolute requirement (although strongly encouraged) and the then serving officers stated that they did intend to grow beards and start wearing turbans, despite the fact that they could have.

If you like beards though, join the Navy.  We like beards!  [

 

[kratz]

It took some time for my D9 to track down a previous male Muslim individual who worked for her.
At no time did he ever expect, ask for or request the ability for accommodation in the
dress regulations of think he should due to his beliefs. The CoC did acknowledge his unique needs
during Ramadan, but that is ancillary to this discussion.

 

[AbdullahD]

I have known many Muslims from several different countries and many of them do not wear beards.  Some of them were very well educated and devout so I am not convinced that the wearing of a beard is a universal requirement of Islam. 

I have also known several Sikhs who have served in the military.  Only one of the ones I've known in the CF chose to wear a turban and then, it was only early on in his career.  Later on, he removed the turban and shaved.  So, I'm also not convinced that wearing a beard is an absolute requirement of the Sikh faith.  In fact, when the Metro Toronto Police approved the wearing of turbans back in the 80s, the Toronto Star ran an article where they consulted with both Sikh scholars and some Sikh officers then already serving on the Metro force.  The scholars said it was not an absolute requirement (although strongly encouraged) and the then serving officers stated that they did intend to grow beards and start wearing turbans, despite the fact that they could have.

If you like beards though, join the Navy.  We like beards!  [

I know extremely devout and educated Muslims who do not have beards, but they understand it is wajib. Everyone has varying levels of devotion, I may not show up to Mosque for every prayer, but the beard issue is a make or break it issue for me. If you can tell me what type of Muslims they were I will give you a relevant ruling, be theh Hanbali, shafi, Maliki, Hanafi, Twelver, Salafi, Quranist etc.

I dont expect the Armed forces to do everything to accommodate me, I just expect my religious identity be allowed to stay intact and by previous posts I see that is not an issue. Which made me extremely happy, if I option in to go fight daesh or what have you and they tell me I need to shave my beard for gas masks or any other safety reason I will and then once that safety reason is passed I'll regrow it. Besides I'd probably be a magnet for daesh fighters with an Islamic beard

Abdullah

 

[RedcapCrusader]

I have known many Muslims from several different countries and many of them do not wear beards.  Some of them were very well educated and devout so I am not convinced that the wearing of a beard is a universal requirement of Islam. 

I have also known several Sikhs who have served in the military.  Only one of the ones I've known in the CF chose to wear a turban and then, it was only early on in his career.  Later on, he removed the turban and shaved.  So, I'm also not convinced that wearing a beard is an absolute requirement of the Sikh faith.  In fact, when the Metro Toronto Police approved the wearing of turbans back in the 80s, the Toronto Star ran an article where they consulted with both Sikh scholars and some Sikh officers then already serving on the Metro force.  The scholars said it was not an absolute requirement (although strongly encouraged) and the then serving officers stated that they did intend to grow beards and start wearing turbans, despite the fact that they could have.

If you like beards though, join the Navy.  We like beards!  [

What they were speaking of is the Five Kakaars. One of which is uncut hair. To be considered a Khalsa or "Pure" you must adopt the five Kakaars including uncut hair.

The Sikhs have a very noble and warrior heritage, their beliefs give exception to those that are of warrior professions such as Soldiers, Police Officers etc. that they are not exiled because of requirements to shave or cut hair.

 

[jitterbug]

I am curious what people think of the current hairstyle regulations and how they appear (to me) to pertain mostly to Caucasian males and females.  I have not seen any pictures of ethnic hair styles in the manual.  If you look at the pictures displaying the permitted hairstyles there is nothing portraying more ethnic style haircuts (ie. dreadlocks, cornrows and others.)

I would suggest that the manual and regs be altered in order to promote more ethnic hairstyles while still having a professional appearance while in uniform.  Hairstyles can be an important cultural identifier and the CF should promote these types of things as they do with Aboriginal people and their long/braided hair.

What do you think about the current regs and do you feel they are representative of all or most cultural/ethnic based hair styles?

 

[armyvern]

I am curious what people think of the current hairstyle regulations and how they appear (to me) to pertain mostly to Caucasian males and females.  I have not seen any pictures of ethnic hair styles in the manual.  If you look at the pictures displaying the permitted hairstyles there is nothing portraying more ethnic style haircuts (ie. dreadlocks, cornrows and others.)

I would suggest that the manual and regs be altered in order to promote more ethnic hairstyles while still having a professional appearance while in uniform.  Hairstyles can be an important cultural identifier and the CF should promote these types of things as they do with Aboriginal people and their long/braided hair.

What do you think about the current regs and do you feel they are representative of all or most cultural/ethnic based hair styles?

Corn rows are allowed and there is a diagram.

Good luck with the dreadlocks --- there's no diagram depicting that because they aren't allowed (nor are they "required as mandatory" by any religion, ethnicity or cultural group that I am aware of).  :

I'm a red head with freckles and of Irish descent what ethnic/cultural hairstyle should I choose?