CDS Responds to Opponents of Recruiting in Schools
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AC 011
Jr. Member
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Dean. Since you brought up the search results from the CF web site, here they are... (hopefully this gets attached).
Regardless, isn't this getting off-topic? The thread was started to discuss the CDS response to statements made by campus/highschool recruitment opposition groups. The matter of educational requirements for specific trades should be (and I believe, is) covered elsewhere.
Regardless, isn't this getting off-topic? The thread was started to discuss the CDS response to statements made by campus/highschool recruitment opposition groups. The matter of educational requirements for specific trades should be (and I believe, is) covered elsewhere.
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As someone who went to an extremely left-leaning Canadian university while it grappled with its own identity when it came to accepting or disowning the Canadian Forces, I must say that this argument brings back a myriad of palm-to-face moments.
I suppose some things will never change, but to say that a university graduate is incapable of independent thought and analysis to the point that we need to protect them from themselves by removing CF booths at university job fairs is tantamount to a slap in the face. What an insult to their intelligence.
I suppose some things will never change, but to say that a university graduate is incapable of independent thought and analysis to the point that we need to protect them from themselves by removing CF booths at university job fairs is tantamount to a slap in the face. What an insult to their intelligence.
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There are a couple of things not quite right with this thread. First there are no unversities that we are not allowed. It is against the Constituion to not allow us in. If you ban the CF recruiter then you have to ban all other employers. UBC tried this and they have now relented. But that doesn't mean that we go where we are not wanted. It causes fewer problems if we don't go to places that the students may have a problem and could cause harm to the Recruiters or anyone talking to one.
Next, when we go into a High School we give information about programs that we have. The ones we stress are NCMSEP (Subsidized Education Program) and ROTP. Both of these programs require you to graduate. I have done a lot of High School presentations and not once have I told anyone to quit school and follow me to the recruiting centre. Even the guys who only want a Combat Arms trade we encourage to finish High School for the main reason if they want to remuster later on they will have to qualify CFAT before they can. This also allows those students who are very good in school the opportunity to go to university if they can't afford it. University degree + job experience = productive member of Canadian society. Best part is I'm not paying for some sluggo to sit at home and drink beer and eat cheesies when they are capable of working!
You will also find it hard to believe that the number of cadets coming in to the recruiting centre is a very small percentage of our applicants. In Onttario a law was passed that students have to stay in High School until they either reach 18 years of age or graduate. why not give them info on what's available when they graduate/age out?
Education Plans that we have are;
NCMSEP
NCSTTP
METTP
ROTP
CEOTP
OCTP
All of these programs are education programs where you either go to school to earn a degree or diploma or you have to work on one while your in. And yes they all require you to graduate High School and do well not "just get by".
Next, when we go into a High School we give information about programs that we have. The ones we stress are NCMSEP (Subsidized Education Program) and ROTP. Both of these programs require you to graduate. I have done a lot of High School presentations and not once have I told anyone to quit school and follow me to the recruiting centre. Even the guys who only want a Combat Arms trade we encourage to finish High School for the main reason if they want to remuster later on they will have to qualify CFAT before they can. This also allows those students who are very good in school the opportunity to go to university if they can't afford it. University degree + job experience = productive member of Canadian society. Best part is I'm not paying for some sluggo to sit at home and drink beer and eat cheesies when they are capable of working!
You will also find it hard to believe that the number of cadets coming in to the recruiting centre is a very small percentage of our applicants. In Onttario a law was passed that students have to stay in High School until they either reach 18 years of age or graduate. why not give them info on what's available when they graduate/age out?
Education Plans that we have are;
NCMSEP
NCSTTP
METTP
ROTP
CEOTP
OCTP
All of these programs are education programs where you either go to school to earn a degree or diploma or you have to work on one while your in. And yes they all require you to graduate High School and do well not "just get by".
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Dean22 said:
"If military recruitment got to a point ...."
Now you're just inventing hypothetical situationa to justify a failing argument. Do YOU have proof that any CF recruiter has encouraged any student to drop out and join the army?
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Andy011 said:
Sorry but you are still wrong. I wish you read my post on how to correct your mistake rather then post again but here I will show you the results.
http://img260.imageshack.us/i/picture3y.png/
http://img42.imageshack.us/i/picture4xe.png/
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Dean, You have made your position clear. While this is a privately owned site, there are many experienced current CF members here, including recruiters who have added their comments. Despite their feedback, and MilPoints feedback, you continue to post an opinion that is not the norm for CF recruiting. I would suggest that you take a moment to read more of the site and the CFRC site before posting again. ~ MilNet Mentor ~
Towards_the_gap
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Dean22 said:
I would really love to know what background and experience you base these statements on.
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Good letter.
Someone mentioned this earlier, but it is sad the way things are right now as far as how some place view the CF. I was one of those people when I was in high school. I saw them around during job fairs, and when University's came to give out information. I used to think they shouldn't be there, but I was ignorant. I'm not sure where this stance comes from directly; it's more than likely this conception that the media and some activist groups put the whole military under.
The fact of the matter is that the CF is loaded with great career options that offer a lot of variety. It's not about being a meathead with a gun; it's a proud group, with a lot of history and a lot of things to be happy about. There's no good reason for people to be against them educating people in High School, or those on University Campuses for that matter. It's a sad and sorry state when the citizens of this country hold ignorant prejudices against those who're ready to protect us at the command of our leaders.
Someone mentioned this earlier, but it is sad the way things are right now as far as how some place view the CF. I was one of those people when I was in high school. I saw them around during job fairs, and when University's came to give out information. I used to think they shouldn't be there, but I was ignorant. I'm not sure where this stance comes from directly; it's more than likely this conception that the media and some activist groups put the whole military under.
The fact of the matter is that the CF is loaded with great career options that offer a lot of variety. It's not about being a meathead with a gun; it's a proud group, with a lot of history and a lot of things to be happy about. There's no good reason for people to be against them educating people in High School, or those on University Campuses for that matter. It's a sad and sorry state when the citizens of this country hold ignorant prejudices against those who're ready to protect us at the command of our leaders.
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
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I think Cadet training was a more useful stream in the old days for recruits, we used to have cadets work the guns with us and a number of them went on to be successful reserve and regular soldiers. Cadets was 13 to 18 so no need to quit school. I personally believe that cadet training was a recruiting tool that got left behind, the move to "PC" the Cadets Corp started to break the link. Not sure if the link could be rekindled in our current world view.
McG
Army.ca Legend
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If your concern is that most high school students have all the wrong reasons for being in the military, why would you oppose a mechanism through which to provide them the honest truth?Dean22 said:
Do you propose that we treat youth like mushrooms (kept in the dark & fed bull manure)? They should be unleashed on the world at 19 having never had to deal with conflicting facts/opinion or the making of a difficult decision? Shut-down all career activities in schools because teenagers might not be ready to handle the information? That all doesn't sound right to me.Dean22 said:
Slippery Slope = Fallacious Argument.Dean22 said:
We are not debating recruitment events at churches or funerals. You are attempting to obfuscate the issue.
1. You are in error. You cannot extrapolate the example of the infantry to cover the whole of the CF - it is not logical and it leads you to the wrong answer (there are many other still open occupation). You just pulled the budget assumption out of your back-side, and it is also incorrect: the schools are still in operations and churning through new service pers.Dean22 said:
2. You are again attempting to obfuscate the issue. We need to recruit and inform potential future recruits - that does not change even if we have a reduced demand (which we do not).
No, because potential recruits are encouraged to complete high school and warned that not completing high school would make them less competitive next to a graduate.Dean22 said:
If they are, they should have listened. They might find themselves greatly disappointed when they don't get accepted because the positions were filled by high school graduates.Dean22 said:
The message they get if they come to a high school display would be to stay in school, maybe take a part-time job in the reserves, and consider some of our over 100 occupational possibilities come graduation. .... maybe its a good idea to keep this information source open to high school students?Dean22 said:
We are not there, and we are not going there. This is another slippery slope argument. Do you want to fight the bogeyman under your bed, or join us in reality?Dean22 said:
More obfuscation. There may be merit to raising the entrance requirements or maybe there is not. However, much like many other employers who don't want non-high school graduates, we want to educate youth about their options so that they start planning (get fit, stay in school to be competitive, learning French might give an edge, need the maths & sciences if I want a particular job, etc).Dean22 said:
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One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is we do not recruit kids under 16. The UN passed a law several years ago. I believe it was called the "child soldier bill" Not sure but it was along those lines. So we are only talking to kids 16 for Reserves and 17 for RegF.
I can remember a recruiter coming to my high school when I was in grade 10. I don't remember him ever telling us to quit school and join but to get an education because it will help you go further faster and that was over 30 years ago when all you needed was grade 8 for most trades Today the message is still the same. It's just opportunities that are a lot better.
I can remember a recruiter coming to my high school when I was in grade 10. I don't remember him ever telling us to quit school and join but to get an education because it will help you go further faster and that was over 30 years ago when all you needed was grade 8 for most trades Today the message is still the same. It's just opportunities that are a lot better.
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Found it. In part it reads as follows:
•The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, adopted in 1989
•Under international law, the participation of children under 18 in armed conflict is generally prohibited, and the recruitment and use of children under 15 is a war crime.
We have been directed to be very careful when talking to high school kids. I can tell them what education they will need for a given trade or how good their marks have to be to be competitive for RMC but at no time can I hand out an application to anyone unless they are 16.
•The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, adopted in 1989
•Under international law, the participation of children under 18 in armed conflict is generally prohibited, and the recruitment and use of children under 15 is a war crime.
We have been directed to be very careful when talking to high school kids. I can tell them what education they will need for a given trade or how good their marks have to be to be competitive for RMC but at no time can I hand out an application to anyone unless they are 16.
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I have no idea who this Dean guy is nor do I chose to find out. However, as this board has often been used by media and potential recruits, one issue that needs to be addressed is the Grade 10 standard for education.
As a national institution we recruit across the country. However education systems are run by the provinces with widely varying standards. Instead of being placed in the role of evaluting the different educational standards - which is a political nightmare - the military sets Grade 10 as the minimum level for applications. As has been pointed out by others, recruiters also emphasize completion of high school in order to be competitive for positions. They do this in their presentations and at the recruiting centres because they realize that in the long run it is better for all involved, the potential applicant and the military, not to waste anyone's time or get their hopes up. For example, no matter how bright an applicant may be, without minimum Grade 12 they are not going to get Medical Assistant. In fact one of my phase coursemates, a nurse, informed me that in the last Med A course every candidate from the civilian world had industrial first aid plus first year university/college just to be considered.
Additionally, many of the same trades are available in the Reserves. This provides an opportunity for older high school students to start a part-time job that can help them earn money for post-secondary education, travel and trades training. The Grade 10 level is usually set for most Army Reserve jobs because it roughly corresponds to when teenagers start taking on adult-level responsibilities ie driving a car, their own bank accounts, starting thinking about post secondary options, age of consent for sex (dependent on province), etc.
As for cadets - Cadets are a youth citizenship program sponsored by the military not an indoctrination/feeder system to the military. True some cadets join the regular and reserve forces but then so do people who worked at McDonald's, gas stations, lawn care, movie theatres, Tim Horton's etc. In other words, more cadets choose not to join the military than actually join.
Finally, nobody in this country is forced to join the military. Because we are a small military that is engaged in combat operations and most people no longer have a direct connection to it, it is more important than ever that Canadians receive factual information about who we are and what we do as opposed to people who have a bias set the agenda.
As a national institution we recruit across the country. However education systems are run by the provinces with widely varying standards. Instead of being placed in the role of evaluting the different educational standards - which is a political nightmare - the military sets Grade 10 as the minimum level for applications. As has been pointed out by others, recruiters also emphasize completion of high school in order to be competitive for positions. They do this in their presentations and at the recruiting centres because they realize that in the long run it is better for all involved, the potential applicant and the military, not to waste anyone's time or get their hopes up. For example, no matter how bright an applicant may be, without minimum Grade 12 they are not going to get Medical Assistant. In fact one of my phase coursemates, a nurse, informed me that in the last Med A course every candidate from the civilian world had industrial first aid plus first year university/college just to be considered.
Additionally, many of the same trades are available in the Reserves. This provides an opportunity for older high school students to start a part-time job that can help them earn money for post-secondary education, travel and trades training. The Grade 10 level is usually set for most Army Reserve jobs because it roughly corresponds to when teenagers start taking on adult-level responsibilities ie driving a car, their own bank accounts, starting thinking about post secondary options, age of consent for sex (dependent on province), etc.
As for cadets - Cadets are a youth citizenship program sponsored by the military not an indoctrination/feeder system to the military. True some cadets join the regular and reserve forces but then so do people who worked at McDonald's, gas stations, lawn care, movie theatres, Tim Horton's etc. In other words, more cadets choose not to join the military than actually join.
Finally, nobody in this country is forced to join the military. Because we are a small military that is engaged in combat operations and most people no longer have a direct connection to it, it is more important than ever that Canadians receive factual information about who we are and what we do as opposed to people who have a bias set the agenda.
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greentoblue said:
Statistically speaking, the comparison that matters isn't what portion of cadets join the CF. What is important is the portion of former cadets join the CF compared to the portion of non-cadets who join. Yes, not all that many cadets choose to sign on the dotted line later on in life, but I would say that it is safe to say a higher portion of former cadets, per capita, join up than non-former cadets do.
If participating in the cadet program is going to make someone 4 times as likely to join up, then every dollar that DND spends on the cadet program would be well worth it, even if it had to come from the recruiting budget. Of course, I pulled that number out of thin air (But, considering the number of people in that I know were former cadets, I'd say it's a conservative estimate), and for a true analysis you'd have to try to figure out how many former cadets would have joined up had they not been in cadets, which would be rather difficult. I'm sure quite a number of cadets joined the cadets due to the fact that they are interested in the military, and then joined the military because they are interested in the military.
Jarnhamar
Army.ca Myth
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Dean22 said:
Recruiting in schools is great IMO. Nothing wrong with it. The military opens many doors that these kids wouldn't have access to.
"I can do that?" is something I commonly hear when recruiting in schools.
Shit ya you can be a pilot, you can be whatever you wanna dude.
Stop acting like recruiting in highschool is some kinda evil michael moore thing.
I agressively suggest all the people I come into contact with in the reserves to finish highschool regardless if they plan on going reg force. I tell them finish highschool and go regs, finish highschool stay in the reserves and look for a full time job or go to college/university.
I think the army should take people without highschool (only grade 10 or whatever) and offer some kinda catch up course.
Sure you can join without highschool, but the military will put you in night class or whatever and get you your highschool diploma.
Monsoon
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Actually, the wording of the Convention itself is much less severe, and Canada is comfortably in compliance (FYI, for the next time someone starts manking at you about recruiting in schools or how the cadet organization is a child army):FDO said:
Article 38
1. States Parties undertake to respect and to ensure respect for rules of international humanitarian law applicable to them in armed conflicts which are relevant to the child.
2. States Parties shall take all feasible measures to ensure that persons who have not attained the age of fifteen years do not take a direct part in hostilities.
3. States Parties shall refrain from recruiting any person who has not attained the age of fifteen years into their armed forces. In recruiting among those persons who have attained the age of fifteen years but who have not attained the age of eighteen years, States Parties shall endeavour to give priority to those who are oldest.
(emphasis mine)
As far as international law goes, this is pretty soft stuff. The ages of 16 and 18 (as well as the policy of not deploying sub-18-year-olds operationally) are Canada's further beefing up over and above the treaty obligations. As far as the Convention is concerned, we could recruit 15-year-olds as long we "endeavoured" to "give priority" to older applicants. And even then, we only have to take "feasible" measures (whatever those are).
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When I was in Recruiting, I wanted to be in the High Schools - to encourage the students to stay in school, and take the courses the needed so they could be considered for occupations that had specific education requirements.
While someone can join with only Grade 10, they are at a disadvantage in being selected, as the selection criteria includes education - the more the better.
I found that the people who had friends or relatives in the military were more likely to join - because they had a realistice idea of what the military was like, both pro and con. Since most people do not have the opportunity to live near a military base, and make these friendships, the Recruiters are sent out to provide the link.
Overall, I think the CDS letter was well written, and concisely summarizes the arguments.
BCOG
While someone can join with only Grade 10, they are at a disadvantage in being selected, as the selection criteria includes education - the more the better.
I found that the people who had friends or relatives in the military were more likely to join - because they had a realistice idea of what the military was like, both pro and con. Since most people do not have the opportunity to live near a military base, and make these friendships, the Recruiters are sent out to provide the link.
Overall, I think the CDS letter was well written, and concisely summarizes the arguments.
BCOG
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