Canadian Airborne..opening for reserves aswell?

[BITTER PPLCI CPL]

I beg to differ on the last quote. The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders who did the bayonet charge, they weren't airborne, the recent VC winner wasn't either, he is a Warrior driver and so are the 100,000 troops fighting and dying in Iraq today.

 

[paracowboy]

the quote doesn't say that NAPs won't fight, it simply says that you know a man who'll jump will fight. Nothing more.

 

[Infanteer101]

I don't know about the rest of you guys but the title of this topic "Canadian Airborne..opening for reserves aswell?" sounds pretty f***ing hilarious to me, regardless of what's being posted here.

 

[Unknown Factor]

I don't know about the rest of you guys but the title of this topic "Canadian Airborne..opening for reserves aswell?" sounds pretty f***ing hilarious to me, regardless of what's being posted here.

I agree, do you guys not think that you've completely gotten off track? You want to be Airborne in the reserves move to Toronto and join the QOR's, good luck!

 

[GO!!!]

I don't know about the rest of you guys but the title of this topic "Canadian Airborne..opening for reserves aswell?" sounds pretty f***ing hilarious to me, regardless of what's being posted here.

I agree. Wanna be a paratrooper? Join the regs. Otherwise, you will have to be content with tuesday nights and maybe a kilt. 

 

[Infanteer101]

LOL GO!!! That was jokes!

 

[GO!!!]

No disrespect intended, but it's true.

IMHO, being in a jump coy is more about your state of mind and your approach to soldiering, than actually jumping (although that is a big part too)

This cannot be replicated in anything other than a full time unit.

 

[claybot]

If your going to be airborne join another army. One that has the lift capability to drop ina n actual fighting force such as mutilple battalions.
Jumping from a helicopter isn't airborne, its airmobile with a parachute.
What army in their right mind is going to drop in a single understrength jump company from helicopters. Don't even bother mention there are three jump companies as we all know each jump company has their own SOP.

That should get some of you wound up.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

If your going to be airborne join another army. One that has the lift capability to drop ina n actual fighting force such as mutilple battalions.
Jumping from a helicopter isn't airborne, its airmobile with a parachute.
What army in their right mind is going to drop in a single understrength jump company from helicopters. Don't even bother mention there are three jump companies as we all know each jump company has their own SOP.

That should get some of you wound up.

And if your purpose is to start a flame war you won't be hear too long either....

 

[Hatless Dancer]

I look at it this way. There is a ZERO probability of those three jump companies ever deploying by canopy into any operational environment. It aint gonna happen.There are simply not enough bodies, we don't have the aircraft(long range, or with air to air refueling capabilties), and we cannot support them when they hit the ground. We are deluding ourselves if we really think we have any sort of rapid deployment capability. So if the likelyhood of ever using these forces as intended is nonexistant, why maintain them?

 

[genesis98]

I've heard of a few reserve sigs getting jump courses.

 

[GO!!!]

I look at it this way. There is a ZERO probability of those three jump companies ever deploying by canopy into any operational environment. It aint gonna happen.There are simply not enough bodies, we don't have the aircraft(long range, or with air to air refueling capabilties), and we cannot support them when they hit the ground. We are deluding ourselves if we really think we have any sort of rapid deployment capability. So if the likelyhood of ever using these forces as intended is nonexistant, why maintain them?

By your logic, we could get rid of the armour, fighter jets, the reserves - completely, and most other aspects of the CF. Then we could hire the americans to do it all for us.  :

Seriously, I thought I made it clear that the jumping is secondary to the state of mind cultivated in the jump coys, but I guess you were too busy to read the rest of the thread.

As such, the question has already been asked, but what would YOU do to cultivate a rapid deployment capability, besides complaining from the influential rank of a retired Cpl? We might not be much compared to our superpower friends to the south, but we have to retain some capabilities until the political climate is more conducive to our capabilities being expanded.

Also, if we are going to compare ourselves to a nation with similar capabilities, start with New Zealand and Australia - not the US. Check out their capabilities as compared to our own, before being the voice of eternal opposition.

 

[Blakey]

Recce courses on the other hand identify alot more soldiering skill, while not as much as jumping, I find younger soldiers learn more from a reccer soldier's skills than anything else.

I just returned back from a weekend at home, I was looking over a picture from our RECCE Pl, circa 1996. Out of 24 Pte - Cpl's that were in the platoon at that time, I counted 13 or more (some I do not know of their career status) that are now currently of the rank of MCpl to WO. The Basic RECCE Course, if run "properly" can identify soldiers that are capable and competent for advancement not just within RECCE Pl but within the battalion and ultimately the CF.
Some on the other hand, are just lost causes and are happy to be C'sFL.

 

[GO!!!]

And I can count six individuals I know of from one Jump Coy who are in the JTF and three more who are SAR Techs.

Every unit has over - achievers, but I believe that there is a concentration of them in the parachute units.

In addition to this, the effectiveness of a unit is based on the premise of TEAMWORK, so the ability of certain people to get promoted is something of an irrelevant statement, and, I would daresay, more indicative of their ability to work within the sysem, as opposed to demonstrating good soldiering or leadership skills. But that's just me.

In regards to soldier skills, I can think of one troop who froze in the door and was stripped of his wings for it. He passed a recce course the next year, so, does that identify him as a coward or "suitable for advancement" by your ciriteria?

Also, since when do the terms "lost cause" and "CFL" go together?

 

[Blakey]

All valid points GO,
I believe that the Basic Para course is something to strive for,I'm just of the thought that having this capability without "actually" employing them in which the purpose that they were designed is somewhat futile.

By your logic, we could get rid of the armour, fighter jets, the reserves - completely, and most other aspects of the CF.

Unfortunately, all of the above mentioned have deployed in "their" role sometime over the last 20 years.

Also, since when do the terms "lost cause" and "CFL" go together?

I should have chosen my words more carefully, as I too, am one of those C'sFL.

 

[GO!!!]

All valid points GO,
I believe that the Basic Para course is something to strive for,I'm just of the thought that having this capability without "actually" employing them in which the purpose that they were designed is somewhat futile.Unfortunately, all of the above mentioned have deployed in "their" role sometime over the last 20 years.I should have chosen my words more carefully, as I too, am one of those C'sFL.

In reference to your statement that the armour, fighter jets and the reserves have been deployed in their roles - please elaborate - as I chose those three due to the reason that they have not been deployed in their roles. A militia unit has never been deployed as a unit since these units were in fact created from demobilised reg force units. Canadian Tanks have not been deployed anywhere but Germany, and our fighters were deployed, but not used in the air bombardment of Kosovo. Light infantry units have been deployed to every theatre since Korea, and para units have led the way within them, doing every single aspect of their "roles" with the sole exception of a parachute descent, which has yet to become tactically necessary.

So if we are retaining all of this useless capability - why not cut it all - after all, if it has'nt been used recently, it must be bad - right?

By your definition, since the LAV III has not yet roared through the Fulda Gap and into the heart of Russia, it must also be being "wasted" as it's capabilities are not being exploited to the ends it was specifically designed for.

Parachute companies are worth keeping for the same reason the airborne was. Versatile, tough troops, with the ambition required to win.

 

[McG]

Canadian Tanks have not been deployed anywhere but Germany,

and Kosovo.

our fighters were deployed, but not used in the air bombardment of Kosovo.

Are you certain of this?

Light infantry units have been deployed to every theatre since Korea

Not all light infantry is para, just as not all para is infantry . . . but, you already know this.  A valid role for light infantry does not automatically equate to a valid role for parachute infantry.

If anything, the additional flexibility that the airborne capability gives the CF is much like additional coverage on an insurance plan.  The CF as an insurance plan covers many of our needs, but one day we may find we need the coverage only available with parachute forces.

 

[GO!!!]

The statement regarding the tanks was in response to the allegation that all military units must be used specifically in the "roles" that they were designed for. Since the armour in Kosovo neglected to engage in Troop size ops, by Blakey's definition, they must be chopped.

Our Fighters in Kosovo were not permitted to bomb targets due to a lack of precision munitions and targetting gear. They attended the fight though.

I like the comparison to an insurance policy - maybe you don't need us today - or for the next two years - but it sure would be nice when we are needed...

And besides - we spend money on stupid $hit in this military all the time - tac vests, PAff O's, Army TV, why is 22 million for the Parachute program such a stretch? At least we can do the job they trained us for!

 

[Blakey]

Just getting ready to head off to work, will post later.

 

[AmmoTech90]

Actually the Hornets in Kosovo did drop weapons, both conventional and PGMs.  Mk82 and Mk84, 500 and 2000lb bombs and GBU 10 and 12 guided weapons.  From the the Annual Report of the CDS 1999/2000

The Canadian Forces contributed 18 CF-18 fighters at the height of the campaign, flew more than 675 combat sorties, and accounted for 10 percent of all NATO strike missions.

More info is provided here:

http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/engraph/Vol1/no1/pdf/55-61_e.pdf

As well, prior to that during the Gulf War in 1990, the CF18s there dropped a few iron bombs towards the end of the campaign as well as a single Hornet engaging an Iraqi vessel with its gun and a missile.

GO!!!, I fully support us keeping a jump capability, but I think you should make sure of your facts before you post.  For example, you state that light infantry troops have been deployed in every theatre since Korea.  Does this include Eritrea where the was a LAVIII coy and a Coyote recce pl.  Does the Coyote recce count as light infantry?  If not, then do you mean the fact that 2 RCR soldiers conducted dismounted patrols makes them light infantry?