Canada's options: fight in Afghanistan or secure 2010 Olympics ?

[wannabe SF member]

Does somebody has number on the size of the police force and/or the total number of reserve and regs in Vancouver?

 

[pbi]

Does somebody has number on the size of the police force and/or the total number of reserve and regs in Vancouver?

Those figures don't really matter, because they aren't real limitations on anything. Using the G8 summit (OP GRIZZLY) as an example, or the Montreal Olympics (OPGAMESCAN) in 1976, the policing function will probably be led by the RCMP. Even if the Vancouver Police lead it, the RCMP will be a huge player, bringing in reinforcements from all over Canada. As well, (again using G8 and other dom ops as examples)  other provincial and major municipal forces from across Canada can be expected to contribute people (public order units, etc). As for the military, if it is a joint op (as it almost certainly will be under thte new CANADA COM structure...) then the entire non-deployed strength of the CF, Reg and Res, across all of Canada, will be the source for force generation. CF numbers will not be limited to what JTFP, or MARPAC, or 39 Bde can provide.

Cheers

 

[vonGarvin]

Holy, sounds like a discussion on staff college about DOMOPS, who does what for whom, etc etc.  Anyway, how long is the Olympics: two weeks?  If we cannot as a country host the Olympics for two weeks without redeploying our entire expeditionary force, then we, ladies and gentlemen, have indeed "jumped the shark" as a nation.

But, as others have said: no problemo.  Personally, I say contract out the security   Oh, and I'm pretty sure that the RCMP, Civpol and others will do the lion's share of 'stuff'.

 

[hank011]

Glad I joined the Air Force and dont have to do anything dangerous. I have to get my car detailed this afternoon. Sure is hard being so short on personnel, we have a curling day tomorrow. Too bad about the manning issues in the Army...damn I spilled my coffee on my keyboard. I'm going home for the day...this is too stressful. ;D

 

[George Wallace]

Glad I joined the Air Force and dont have to do anything dangerous. I have to get my car detailed this afternoon. Sure is hard being so short on personnel, we have a curling day tomorrow. Too bad about the manning issues in the Army...damn I spilled my coffee on my keyboard. I'm going home for the day...this is too stressful. ;D

And this bit of drivel is supposed to be.........what?    'Air Force' isn't going to make any difference when they start looking for 'desk jockey's' to screen people entering an olympic site.  It won't stop you from walking the perimeter of an Olympic site at 0300 hrs.  It won't stop you from serving food to Olympic athelets.  Get used to it.  You are just as likely to get a tasking as anyone else in the CF.

 

[aesop081]

Glad I joined the Air Force and dont have to do anything dangerous. I have to get my car detailed this afternoon. Sure is hard being so short on personnel, we have a curling day tomorrow. Too bad about the manning issues in the Army...damn I spilled my coffee on my keyboard. I'm going home for the day...this is too stressful. ;D

This guy is the reason the AF gets a bad name.  Dont worry, we have lots of mission-focussed people to make up for him.  Good thing he is not in my unit......

 

[hank011]

And this bit of drivel is supposed to be.........what?    'Air Force' isn't going to make any difference when they start looking for 'desk jockey's' to screen people entering an olympic site.  It won't stop you from walking the perimeter of an Olympic site at 0300 hrs.  It won't stop you from serving food to Olympic athelets.  Get used to it.  You are just as likely to get a tasking as anyone else in the CF.

Maybe you missed the rest of the thread. The general idea is that the "Canadian Forces" is short of pesonnel because of Afghanistan. Last time I checked 90% of our deployed force is hard ARMY. The posts here seem to suggest that only an infantry platoon can accomplish security for the olympics, it is only a part of the package. The Navy and the Air Force will be used in any role so I totally disagree that we are understrength.
As for the "Air Force" part, it makes all the difference. The Army has its organizational structure and we are not a part of it. The 500 series trades in Tac Hel can attest to that. The Army excludes the other two elements at all costs. 
It also illustrates the absurdity of how numbers are calculated in the military. "Combat Arms" is not the same thing as "Army" or "CF" so just because we dont have enough infanteers doesnt mean we dont have enough personnel.

 

[aesop081]

Maybe you missed the rest of the thread. The general idea is that the "Canadian Forces" is short of pesonnel because of Afghanistan. Last time I checked 90% of our deployed force is hard ARMY. The posts here seem to suggest that only an infantry platoon can accomplish security for the olympics, it is only a part of the package. The Navy and the Air Force will be used in any role so I totally disagree that we are understrength.
As for the "Air Force" part, it makes all the difference. The Army has its organizational structure and we are not a part of it. The 500 series trades in Tac Hel can attest to that. The Army excludes the other two elements at all costs.   
It also illustrates the absurdity of how numbers are calculated in the military. "Combat Arms" is not the same thing as "Army" or "CF" so just because we dont have enough infanteers doesnt mean we dont have enough personnel.

Maybe you should spend some time in my squadron and come tell us we are not short of personel. Maybe your unit is doing just fine but i know that in my comunity, were are in the serious hurt locker for both 500 series and aircrew.

 

[hank011]

Maybe you should spend some time in my squadron and come tell us we are not short of personel. Maybe your unit is doing just fine but i know that in my comunity, were are in the serious hurt locker for both 500 series and aircrew.

As a former AVS tech I have seen both sides of that argument and I totally believe you. There are units however(that must go un-named) that run 24/7 on a 7-3 7-4 shift just to launch one plane a day. They do not have enough personnel as well but its because such a schedule requires five times as many people most of whom watch movies and sleep. No two units are the same.

 

[dglad]

Why is there this automatic assumption that large numbers of military personnel will be required for the 2010 Olympics?  The exact numbers, skillsets, equipment, etc. required will depend on the security estimates done, and the plans developed therefrom.  There may be several thousand personnel required...or several hundred.  There will certainly be no request for more resources than the CF can provide.  Conversely, if and when the CF is committed, it will provide what it is tasked to provide.  And if that means pulling people from behind desks, wheels of trucks, or wherever, to do it, so be it.  As for transporting, feeding, and housing them...well, that's what we DO, no?  This really is mostly sound and fury, and probably originally a product of some fuzzy attempt to raise further concerns about the "impact" of the Afghanistan mission.

We'll be given a mission that's within our capabilities to deliver, and we'll deliver it.

 

[KevinB]

Why is there this automatic assumption that large numbers of military personnel will be required for the 2010 Olympics?  The exact numbers, skillsets, equipment, etc. required will depend on the security estimates done, and the plans developed therefrom.  There may be several thousand personnel required...or several hundred.  There will certainly be no request for more resources than the CF can provide.  Conversely, if and when the CF is committed, it will provide what it is tasked to provide.  And if that means pulling people from behind desks, wheels of trucks, or wherever, to do it, so be it.  As for transporting, feeding, and housing them...well, that's what we DO, no?  This really is mostly sound and fury, and probably originally a product of some fuzzy attempt to raise further concerns about the "impact" of the Afghanistan mission.

We'll be given a mission that's within our capabilities to deliver, and we'll deliver it.

+1

Good post

 

[midget-boyd91]

Why is there this automatic assumption that large numbers of military personnel will be required for the 2010 Olympics

I agree exactly. We have police to do jobs like this, it is one of the things that the police do.
Assuming that we will need to deploy in either BC, or Afghanistan does not make very much sense, we have had other major events happen in Canada in which we didnt need to pull troops from Afghanistan. A perfect example would be the 2003 BC forest fires.

 

[hank011]

Why is there this automatic assumption that large numbers of military personnel will be required for the 2010 Olympics?  The exact numbers, skillsets, equipment, etc. required will depend on the security estimates done, and the plans developed therefrom.  There may be several thousand personnel required...or several hundred.  There will certainly be no request for more resources than the CF can provide.  Conversely, if and when the CF is committed, it will provide what it is tasked to provide.  And if that means pulling people from behind desks, wheels of trucks, or wherever, to do it, so be it.  As for transporting, feeding, and housing them...well, that's what we DO, no?  This really is mostly sound and fury, and probably originally a product of some fuzzy attempt to raise further concerns about the "impact" of the Afghanistan mission.

We'll be given a mission that's within our capabilities to deliver, and we'll deliver it.

It wont affect Afghanistan, thats just tabloid style headlines. We will be there for one simple reason...MONEY. We are slave labour to keep costs down. The last olympics, the G-8 summit, the ice storm, Manitoba floods(the stuff we are proud of). Every one was manned by CF personnel working side by side with people who are making overtime, double time, triple time whilst the CF member got honourable mention. You think they will pay overtime to an OPP officer when they can get an MP to do the same for free?
It may seem kinda negative but watching NB Power employees make 250-500 an hour alongside a CF lineman making 500 a week opens the eyes rather quickly. If you have stars in your eyes then you wont notice.

 

[nsmedicman]

AFAIK.....the RCMP has a recruiting problem of its own. They have a target of 2000 new members per year over the next 5 years, and are having problems meeting that quota. Also more members are retiring than they can replace. While they receive many applications, only a fraction of those actually complete the process for whatever reason. So, I don't know how much of a contibution that the LE community can make as a whole. I am sure that the RCMP, along with their provincial and municipal counterparts, can raise a sizable force, but I can't see it succeed without a significant contribution from the CF.

Just my opinion.....

 

[dglad]

It wont affect Afghanistan, thats just tabloid style headlines. We will be there for one simple reason...MONEY. We are slave labour to keep costs down. The last olympics, the G-8 summit, the ice storm, Manitoba floods(the stuff we are proud of). Every one was manned by CF personnel working side by side with people who are making overtime, double time, triple time whilst the CF member got honourable mention. You think they will pay overtime to an OPP officer when they can get an MP to do the same for free?
It may seem kinda negative but watching NB Power employees make 250-500 an hour alongside a CF lineman making 500 a week opens the eyes rather quickly. If you have stars in your eyes then you wont notice.

Well, money is part of it, certainly.  But my experience with civil authorities is that they also believe that the military has an enormous capacity and is capable of heroic feats.  As a CO in LFWA, I was given the power to immediately provide unarmed assistance to civil authorities, on my own authority, where a clear and present threat to life and limb existed.  This fact made us immediately relevant to disaster planning in Thunder Bay.  At my first meeting with civil disaster planners, I was asked how many troops, trucks, tracked vehicles and helicopters I could get, and how quickly.  It took some true diplomacy to deflate expectations without also unduely deflating the opinion of the CF.  Even then, it was clear that the main interest of the mayor, police chief, fire chief, coroner, etc. was the availability of even a few dozen trained and disciplined soldiers, used to functioning efficiently in a structured chain of command and living for extended periods under austere conditions while working long, hard hours.  The hardware--the trucks, trailers, canvas, radios, etc. that we COULD provide--were also a major bonus to these planners who, aside from their usual emergency vehicles, didn't have much available.

So don't sell the civvies short on their genuine desire to tap into the capabilities offered by the CF, which are far from insignificant.  Now, I do hear you about the pay...but those who choose to work with the CF, either as member of the Reg F, or a Reservist taking time away from a civ job to assist in dom ops, surely must be doing it for something more than the money.... 

 

[pbi]

Turn this pay thing around for a second. What about the members of a local volunteer fire dept, serving on the front lines in a disaster situation in their community, who are being paid very little or maybe nothing for day after day? Put them next to a platoon of soldiers. How do the civvies feel next to somebody who gets free meals, free medical care, free quarters, free transport to "the workplace", field operations allowance, and a pretty good paycheque to boot? If you look at it that way, doesn't it make this carping about those overpaid Quebec Hydro guys seem a bit selfish and weak? It's all relative. This paycheque envy is IMHO  pretty pointless and should really be beneath us. We are NOT poorly rewarded by any realistic standard (by "reward" I include all entitlements we receive, from medical care over and above Provincial Health to relocation costs to educational reimbursements to our allowances and our basic paycheques.) and we shouldn't winge about it.

Cheers

DJB

 

[hank011]

Turn this pay thing around for a second. What about the members of a local volunteer fire dept, serving on the front lines in a disaster situation in their community, who are being paid very little or maybe nothing for day after day? Put them next to a platoon of soldiers. How do the civvies feel next to somebody who gets free meals, free medical care, free quarters, free transport to "the workplace", field operations allowance, and a pretty good paycheque to boot? If you look at it that way, doesn't it make this carping about those overpaid Quebec Hydro guys seem a bit selfish and weak? It's all relative. This paycheque envy is IMHO  pretty pointless and should really be beneath us. We are NOT poorly rewarded by any realistic standard (by "reward" I include all entitlements we receive, from medical care over and above Provincial Health to relocation costs to educational reimbursements to our allowances and our basic paycheques.) and we shouldn't winge about it.

Cheers

DJB

A good point except if we apply that theory to the 2010 Olympics(NGO to steal an acronym), why not just contract out to Erinys or Halliburton? The answer remains at money. The Federal contribution to the Olympics will invariably be in the form of security and they get better bang for their buck providing those of us who work on a "fixed income" than those who get paid overtime.

 

[KevinB]

Quite frankly Private Security is not an option for securing of sites etc.

Companies could be hired to private security to individual athletes. From a Canadian PMC perspective Alan Bell's Globe Risk is the only real option for PSD for athlete's.

However in the grand scheme a PMC (Erinys is not a good example) would have to contract TCN's (Third Country Nationals) to keep costs down -- look at Triple Canopy in Iraq (Philipino's, El Salvadoran etc.) the result is a questionable mismatch of personnel. 

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Sounds like a job for the Gurkha's national ski team!!  ;D

 

[KevinB]

LOL -- but seriously an Armed Force -- especially a Foreign force is not the answer to the Olympic security issue.

Canada is NOT a Police State -- despite what Jack Layton and other seem to be intent on creating