CAF Domestic Disaster Relief Ops 2008 - 2017 [Merged]

[Journeyman]

“Without hesitation, the Canadian Forces were here for us when we needed them and with their help we were able to avoid catastrophe on the Assiniboine River.

Well having been there multiple times, yet they rebuild in the flood-plain....yes, it's tiresome.

Oh, and I've also been involved with the critical need for CF troops to shovel out Toronto bus stops, even though the weather still precluded bus service.


Perhaps if the municipalities realized that there's always a cost....

 

[Kat Stevens]

I always thought the dom ops policy was that whichever level of government called for military assistance footed the bill for the operation.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I always thought the dom ops policy was that whichever level of government called for military assistance footed the bill for the operation.

That was the policy when I was serving, but the article suggests that about 15 years ago (1997/78, during the Chrétien regime) it changed and DND stopped recovering - or trying to recover - such costs. I said "trying" because I believe (it wasn't anywhere near my area of responsibility) that some (many?) disaster relief costs ended up being "forgiven" when cabinet told DND to stop trying to collect from some regions.

 

[Old Sweat]

That was the policy when I was serving, but the article suggests that about 15 years ago (1997/78, during the Chrétien regime) it changed and DND stopped recovering - or trying to recover - such costs. I said "trying" because I believe (it wasn't anywhere near my area of responsibility) that some (many?) disaster relief costs ended up being "forgiven" when cabinet told DND to stop trying to collect from some regions.

It is my understanding that Quebec had always refused to pay, both for domestic disaster relief and for aid of the civil power. Furthermore, from time to time the MND waived cost recovery in other cases, which was catered for in the regulations. I cannot say one way or the other how much has been billed as opposed to how much has been recovered over the years. Excuse me for being cynical, but there are not many political points to be made by pressing recovery instead of stepping in and publically forgiving the costs, with the appropriate number of government MPs in attendance, of course, all of whom are credited for going to bat for their constituents.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Perhaps clearer criteria on when a another level of government shall pay and when not. Foreseeable events, bill them. Unforeseeable, then you work for free.

 

[dapaterson]

Perhaps clearer criteria on when a another level of government shall pay and when not. Foreseeable events, bill them. Unforeseeable, then you work for free.

So, is the annual flooding in Manitoba foreseeable?

 

[Edward Campbell]

Also, everyone, please bear in mind the HUGE difference between: "Aid to the civil power," which is non-discretionary; and "civil assistance,"* which includes disaster relief, etc, which is highly discretionary and, often, very political in nature.


-----
* Not sure what the correct term is these days.

 

[The Bread Guy]

So, is the annual flooding in Manitoba foreseeable?

In Ontario, we have a "flood watch season", but you don't get evacuations every season.  Good question.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

So, is the annual flooding in Manitoba foreseeable?

The flooding is , if the flood levels change rapidly and overwhelm the systems, then I think that falls into the unforeseeable, even if it's not. In this case the Provincial and Federal governments have invested a fair chunk of money , time and planning to mitigate an annual event. Despite all that, sometimes crap happens and I think requesting larger resources is justified.

Not anticipating snow cycles or preparing adequate equipment to a snowstorm in a city that should have a longterm plan to deal with such I would consider a foreseeable event and a bill forthcoming. I think a clear line is needed, up to that line expect to pay, perhaps on a sliding scale, beyond the line the equipment moves as soon as it's clear the line is going to be crossed, so we don't have situation that we wait to long to respond to. One option would be that regional and Provincial governments pay to a disaster fund so the military can respond and that at least some of the money will come from that fund. This is how the Oil pollution fund works.

 

[ModlrMike]

So, is the annual flooding in Manitoba foreseeable?

To a degree. The current approach is to rate floods at 100, 300 or 1000 year events with the lower numbers occurring more often and being less severe. The 1997 flood was a 1000yr event, and the 2011 flood a 300 year event. Most serious floods here are 100yr events and cause widespread, but reasonably easy to manage crises.

Several factors come into play when flood forecasting: the amount of fall rain and ground saturation coupled with the first freeze date, the winter snow cover, and upstream events in North Dakota; to name a few. Flood forecasts can change at a moments notice if there is a large late season snowfall with very cold weather that prevents runoff. This last factor was what precipitated the flood of 2011 which had initially been rated at 100yr but was much worse. The recent reduction in flood damages are due to several initiatives: widening the mouth of the Floodway where it drains into Lake Winnipeg, completion of the Brunkild dyke, and extension of the Portage diversion for example. As each of these projects nears completion, the degree of flood damage should lessen. That being said, there are some towns like Morris, that will continue to be at risk, as will some farms. The Red River drainage basin is massive, taking up most of lower MB and some of lower SK, and flooding can occur anywhere within its boundaries.

Link to map.

 

[GAP]

Some of the damage was mitigated after 1997 by forcing rebuilds to raise the level of housing/farms yards above the flood levels.....the 300 year level if I remember correctly. They refused funding if it was not done.

 

[The Bread Guy]

If quoted correctly, an interesting quote from the Parliamentary Secretary for Defence, Chris Alexander, via CBC.ca:

.... Alexander couldn't say how much money the department stands to save by changing the process, explaining that the decision would be made on a case-by-case basis, but he noted that disaster relief is secondary to the military's main job, "the defence of Canada."

"In budgetary terms, it certainly isn't the dominant role or the main role of the Canadian Forces." ....

On the yellow bit, if a country's defence strategy lists 3 priorities for "delivering excellence at home", one of which is to "assist civil authorities in responding to a wide range of threats - from natural disasters to terrorist attacks", am I the only one to wonder how useful the system is if it can't deliver on its top three priorities?

To be fair, though, that bit in green in the quote does provide a handy escape clause.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

To fair, he is not saying the CF won't be used to help out in disasters.

What (I think) is being said is that we reserve the right to recover funds in certain circumstances.

There is a tendency for certain municipal and provincial governments to treat the CF another emergency response department- one that comes for free.

This can lead to situations where lower levels of government do not develop the emergency response capabilities they should maybe have developed on their own.

 

[The Bread Guy]

To fair, he is not saying the CF won't be used to help out in disasters.

What (I think) is being said is that we reserve the right to recover funds in certain circumstances.

There is a tendency for certain municipal and provincial governments to treat the CF another emergency response department- one that comes for free.

This can lead to situations where lower levels of government do not develop the emergency response capabilities they should maybe have developed on their own.

I actually never thought of that - good point.

Meanwhile, the latest - a bit of clarification - from the Minister (also attached if link doesn't work):

(Yesterday), the Honourable Peter MacKay, Minister of National Defence, issued the following statement on the Department of National Defence's cost-recovery measures for disaster relief:

"The Canadian Armed Forces has always been, and remains, ready and able to assist Canadians at all times. As Minister of National Defence, my greatest priority is ensuring the safety and well-being of all Canadians.

‪I stress two things.  First, there has been no change in Department of National Defence 's policy regarding cost recovery; and second, the policy relates only to recovery of costs from another federal department, such as Public Safety, when it requests that Department of National Defence / Canadian Armed Forces provide assistance to a province, municipality, or other eligible entity.  ‪Decisions regarding cost recovery from another federal department are made on a case-by-case basis."

 

[daftandbarmy]

The Municiplaities will likely just recover the costs from the Feds through the DFAA:

http://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/prg/em/dfaa/index-eng.aspx

Each Province can claim back up to $1.00 per head of population (BC = $4.3 million) annually in case of 'disasters', which usually means flooding (because other troubles are generally ionsurable). Of course, the Feds can mess around with what is claimable, or not, kind of like an overempowered Fin Clerk can debate a travel claim with you.  ;D

 

[The Bread Guy]

Bumped with the latest - OP Lentus is under way again - pix from CF imagery folk ....

Capatain Kristjan Raths, 435 Squadron Air Combat Systems Officer, takes count of Kashechewan residents boarding the CC130 Hercules aircraft. During Operation LENTUS in May 2014, Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) aircraft evacuated flood victims stranded in Fort Albany and Kashechewan, Ontario, in response to a request for assistance by the Province of Ontario. Operation LENTUS is the Canadian Armed Forces response to provide support for Humanitarian Assistance and Disaster Response (HADR) to provincial and territorial authorities in the case of a major natural disaster that overwhelms their capacity to respond.  Photo taken by: Sgt Daren Kraus

Kashechewan residents disembark the CC130 Hercules aircraft at Kapuskasing Aiport. During Operation LENTUS in May 2014, Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) aircraft evacuated flood victims stranded in Fort Albany and Kashechewan, Ontario, in response to a request for assistance by the Province of Ontario. Operation LENTUS is the Canadian Armed Forces response to provide support for Humanitarian Assistance and Disaster Response (HADR) to provincial and territorial authorities in the case of a major natural disaster that overwhelms their capacity to respond.  Photo taken by: Sgt Daren Kraus

Overall of Kashechewan from the cockpit of CC130 340 Hercules aircraft during take off. During Operation LENTUS in May 2014, Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) aircraft evacuated flood victims stranded in Fort Albany and Kashechewan, Ontario, in response to a request for assistance by the Province of Ontario. Operation LENTUS is the Canadian Armed Forces response to provide support for Humanitarian Assistance and Disaster Response (HADR) to provincial and territorial authorities in the case of a major natural disaster that overwhelms their capacity to respond.  Photo taken by: Sgt Daren Kraus

More CF pix here, and more on OP Lentus here.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Bumped with the latest CF domestic help-out, this time in New Brunswick - this from PS Canada:

The Honourable Ralph Goodale, Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, issued the following statement:

“Our thoughts and prayers are with the people of New Brunswick as they respond to, and recover from, Tuesday’s ice storm. We are saddened by news that it appears to be responsible for two deaths and some injuries.

On Friday, January 27, the Government of Canada received – and accepted – a request from Denis Landry, New Brunswick Minister of Justice and Public Safety, for emergency assistance from the Canadian Armed Forces to support the Province of New Brunswick.

States of local emergency have been declared in the region: provincial and municipal assets have been deployed to address the situation. The provincial request identifies a need for a military reconnaissance team to be deployed to the damaged areas across New Brunswick to support emergency response efforts already underway.


We encourage all New Brunswickers affected by the storm to follow alerts issued by the New Brunswick Emergency Measures Organization which has set up numerous reception and warming centers across the province.

Locations of warming centres can be found at: http://www2.gnb.ca/content/gnb/en/news/public_alerts/public_alert.2017.01.0104.html.

The Government of Canada remains ready to provide any additional assistance that may be required to ensure the province has the necessary resources to address the impacts of this disaster.

The government of New Brunswick remains responsible for the management of the emergency response. Public Safety Canada is responsible for coordinating the federal response. Canadian Armed Forces personnel are in continuous liaison with Public Safety, other federal partners, and the Province of New Brunswick to ensure a synchronized response to situation.” ...

More on the story via Google News here - good luck to all affected 

 

[ConsideringCareers…]

Been up there too... many, many times over a period of 15 years..... same problem every time!

Nothing that you couldn't solve with several jerry cans of gas & some matches..... but, that's my "not DS" solution to the  problem

I gather that you are a combat engineer (wow look at my detective skills  :sarcasm: ) how often do the Engineers do humanitarian missions, either domestic or overseas.

Thank you!

Also, what does Chimo come from, I understand it is a greeting and is used as the engineers Cheer and all, but where does it come from? Why is it used?

Thanks again

 

[mariomike]

Also, what does Chimo come from, I understand it is a greeting and is used as the engineers Cheer and all, but where does it come from? Why is it used?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Military_Engineers#Chimo

See also,

Customs and Traditions of the Canadian Military Engineers
https://web.archive.org/web/20050909200635/http://www.forces.gc.ca/admie/dgcps/CME_customs_e.htm

 

[Blackadder1916]

. . .  how often do the Engineers do humanitarian missions, either domestic or overseas.

Do a little research and not just on this forum.  Try going to the horse's mouth (or ass depending on viewpoint).

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/operations.page

Look through the links provided for both current and past operations.  Some of them will have a synopsis of where, what, who and when was provided.  If no synopsis, do a google search of the specific operation.  You probably find an answer to all your questions about where and how often the CAF deploys.